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To gill or not to gill

 
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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:00 am    Post subject: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Hello Forum Members,

Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips installed inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator at the firewall, the battery also at the firewall and the engine's ignition modules are all running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F.

In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summer where the temps are normal.

I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the consensus gravitates toward not opening the gills.

Any thoughts?
Chris


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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Hi Chris

As far as cooling goes, can you answer some questions so we have a better understanding on your 912S with fixed pitch Mono XS:
** Are you using supplied oil and coolant radiator
** What coolant are you using
** What is max. CHT and Coolant Temps you have seen, on ground and in flight
** Did you calibrate your CHT, OT and Coolant temp gauges
** What is maximum cylinder wall Temps you have seen?
** Are you using factory firewall, or did you do something else like put on aft side of UCMF like Bud suggests on a mono
** What is your gap between the aft side of your radiator duct and firewall
** What procedure do you use to shut down when you know you will be doing a hot start
** How does your engine start when hot
** Are your intake eyeballs factory size
** Did you do anything for eyeballs to aid flow on the inside of the cowl
** Did you modify the radiator duct entrance intake lip
** Is your radiator duct sealed really well from front to back along with your radiators

I think one feature of gills is to cool engine upon shut down. Many open oil and coolant access doors.
I read a note from Andy somewhere that he was test flying a Mono without doors, he decided to reach out and check gills and couldn't believe just how much heat was coming out of them.

I'm not flying yet, but have heard often you won't overheat on ground if you have your top cowl off on a Mono. Stuck on ground too long I believe makes many a mono get hot under the collar. I added 2 cooling fans that exit the gills. I'm using two long can speed 400 electric motors they exit air out of the gills. I have it set up where you can series or parallel motors. On low draw is 3 amps and moves a reasonable amount of air. On high they move a ton of air at a pretty darn high pitch speed. I forget exact pitch speed, but not far off from leaf blower speed outside the cowl! Amp draw on high is 16 amps. I have a SD20S sitting on the vacuum pad which pretty much has a 100% duty cycle but doesn't put out too much at lower RPMs. I have a internal Dynamo that works better at lower RPMs, but best keep draw under 12 amps if you want a long life. I choose cooler, so if stuck on ground and getting hot, course pitch, cowl flap full open, try and aim into wind and have a higher RPM and turn off internal Dynamo and put gill fans on high. Will also put on low for a while upon shut down to keep things cool.

Ron P.


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

That's a lot of questions Ron Smile and I will answer what I remember right now, with a little more time on the ones I don't:

** Are you using supplied oil and coolant radiator
> Yes

** What coolant are you using
> Dexcool 50/50.

** What is max. CHT and Coolant Temps you have seen, on ground and in flight
> I think around 200-210 (old CHT and oil) in the middle of summer. With the new engine I have seen around 180-185F max water and oil temps, more typical it has been 165-175F (even with a quart of the oil cooler taped over. but OAT are in the order of 50-65F. Both oil and water tend to track the same with oil being a little colder.

** Did you calibrate your CHT, OT and Coolant temp gauges
> Yes with the previous engine. Not with the new.

** What is maximum cylinder wall Temps you have seen?
> Unknown

** Are you using factory firewall, or did you do something else like put on aft side of UCMF like Bud suggests on a mono
> I have a Bud Yerly firewall for the mono. Really cool (probably literally).

** What is your gap between the aft side of your radiator duct and firewall
> Will have to look but Bud's firewall provides lots of clearance and a relatively smooth transition for the air to flow out.

** What procedure do you use to shut down when you know you will be doing a hot start
> I always follow what Rotax says in the OM. Cool down at least two minutes, got o low idle (1400) turn off one ignition, wait a few seconds then the other.

** How does your engine start when hot
> Perfectly

** Are your intake eyeballs factory size
> Yes

** Did you do anything for eyeballs to aid flow on the inside of the cowl
> No

** Did you modify the radiator duct entrance intake lip
> Yes. Diffusers on both top and bottom. On the sides the duct just ends with some rubber seals sealing most of the gap. The intent was to also add diffusers to the sides later on but it is so good right now I am not bothering yet. I also modified the duct, making it's top straighter to keep the x-sectional area almost constant (muffler clearance permitting) until a few inches from the coolers and then the area opens up relatively fast to drop the speed and raise the air pressure just before it hits the coolers.

** Is your radiator duct sealed really well from front to back along with your radiators
> Very very well. The duct and coolers are totally sealed with no gaps where air could escape around them.

As I said, I really have no cooling issues so far. Don't know what will happen when I go to Oshkosh and have to wait a long time to depart but compared to my LongEZ I can run it on the ground and climb forever in the Florida heat and had no issues so far. I attribute that to Bud's firewall and the duct/coolers sealing, baffling and intake lip mods I implemented.

Chris


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budyerly@msn.com



Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 280
Location: Florida USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Chris,
Cooling gills are an issue for some Classics and XS but if the draw out the bottom cowl is good, you will not need them. If the firewall is made as in Cooling 101 on my website, and it all works, leave it. But test.
The 912 and most 912S engines will slightly over cool if all the cooling mods are done. 914s tend to run hotter, especially in the climb.

Cool oil this time of year is not uncommon with a 912.  One can set up a butterfly over the bottom of the glycol cooler on an XS to warm up the oil but don't forget and leave it closed. This warms for takeoff and is adjustable in flight. Creighton Smith used a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler and it works really well summer and winter in his Classic. Some have oil thermostats, and these are tolerable for most.

Like Ron mentioned. Simply test. Does the oil cool in the climb fine in mid summer and this is only a cruise problem. If cool all the time, check the sensor, if it is OK, use aluminum tape to partially block the oil cooler face and fly. I use a thermocouple to check my under hood temps rather than tapes, but the process is the same. Harbor Freight $50 and a long probe to monitor the oil temp and other components. It works for testing just like the tapes.

I use my gills as a forced air exit for my footwell mounted fan cooled TCU/Servo box. I left the other as is for symmetry. It's an experimental! Tape over the gills and if all is OK fill them.  On some I removed the gills and put in an access panel for a battery plug. On the other side, a small access door to store the funnel for glycol filling and oil filling.

It will get hot in a few months. Test again in full summer. Make your decision, then paint. It is better to do the painting in the summer mornings anyway.

If you do everything to cool, most of the time the 912 engine will overcool. Make a cowl flap to close off the exit or put a butterfly in the inlet. On an XS, a butterfly can be done and a mechanical push pull and arm mechanism will not have to be disconnected to remove the cowl. That’s convenient.
If the cowl flap is chosen it affects both the glycol and oil temps. That may not be convenient. The butterfly can be oil only or do one for both oil and glycol. That’s convenient too.

Cowl flaps are best to be moved electrically as the cowl flap mechanism has to be attached to the cowl. It is far easier to remove a plug on the top of the footwell rather than a linkage. Make an electronic thermostat control using an Arduino and some sensors if you want. No matter how simple, a cowl flap with a mechanical linkage requires me to crawl under the airplane. That is not hard, it is the getting back up that’s hard.


Enjoy your plane. Sounds like you are having fun.  That is the point of building.

Bud Yerly

--


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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Fwiw  i luv this cheap bluetooth thermometer for undercowl temp monitoring. Even logs snd graphs.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B08S32598J/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_plhdr=t&aaxitk=fa618ac76940a7a559b575ec82cdd4fb&hsa_cr_id=3515932720301&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_scm_asin_0_img&pd_rd_w=MdCil&pf_rd_p=6bf407be-0d81-4bc8-b6f9-c624841b7524&pd_rd_wg=TD5tH&pf_rd_r=1GTNHFMSNY2CGHWB36YK&pd_rd_r=3144dfe7-de34-4432-89e2-0defb040c739

Cheers  peteZ
On Wed., Feb. 9, 2022, 5:28 p.m. Bud Yerly, <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:

[quote]
Chris,
Cooling gills are an issue for some Classics and XS but if the draw out the bottom cowl is good, you will not need them.  If the firewall is made as in Cooling 101 on my website, and it all works, leave it.  But test.
The 912 and most 912S engines will slightly over cool if all the cooling mods are done.  914s tend to run hotter, especially in the climb.
 
Cool oil this time of year is not uncommon with a 912.  One can set up a butterfly over the bottom of the glycol cooler on an XS to warm up the oil but don't forget and leave it closed.  This warms for takeoff and is adjustable in flight.  Creighton Smith used a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler and it works really well summer and winter in his Classic.  Some have oil thermostats, and these are tolerable for most.
 
Like Ron mentioned.  Simply test. Does the oil cool in the climb fine in mid summer and this is only a cruise problem.  If cool all the time, check the sensor, if it is OK, use aluminum tape to partially block the oil cooler face and fly.  I use a thermocouple to check my under hood temps rather than tapes, but the process is the same.  Harbor Freight $50 and a long probe to monitor the oil temp and other components.  It works for testing just like the tapes.
 
I use my gills as a forced air exit for my footwell mounted fan cooled TCU/Servo box.  I left the other as is for symmetry.  It's an experimental!  Tape over the gills and if all is OK fill them.  On some I removed the gills and put in an access panel for a battery plug.  On the other side, a small access door to store the funnel for glycol filling and oil filling. 
 
It will get hot in a few months.  Test again in full summer.  Make your decision, then paint.  It is better to do the painting in the summer mornings anyway.
 
If you do everything to cool, most of the time the 912 engine will overcool.  Make a cowl flap to close off the exit or put a butterfly in the inlet.  On an XS, a butterfly can be done and a mechanical push pull and arm mechanism will not have to be disconnected to remove the cowl.  That’s convenient.
If the cowl flap is chosen it affects both the glycol and oil temps.  That may not be convenient.  The butterfly can be oil only or do one for both oil and glycol.  That’s convenient too.
 
Cowl flaps are best to be moved electrically as the cowl flap mechanism has to be attached to the cowl.  It is far easier to remove a plug on the top of the footwell rather than a linkage.  Make an electronic thermostat control using an Arduino and some sensors if you want.  No matter how simple, a cowl flap with a mechanical linkage requires me to crawl under the airplane.  That is not hard, it is the getting back up that’s hard. 
 
 
Enjoy your plane.  Sounds like you are having fun.  That is the point of building.
 
Bud Yerly
 
--


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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Hi Chris

If under severe conditions you are keeping things cool when hot out with shut down, long climbs and long ground operations, guess you can leave them closed.

A few points:
** CHT is not the same as Coolant Temps. To measure Coolant temps, you measure in the inlet hose between collector pot and coolant radiator.

** Worth while to calibrate new senders

** 912S install manual wants you to measure cylinder wall temps and make sure you can stay below their maximum, worth while to measure under harshest environment, temp mount sender along cylinder wall using a screw between fins to temporarily hold it in position

Have fun!

Ron P.


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n7188u



Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Thanks for the very informative feedback.

Bud, I will toy with the idea of installing some sort of adjustable flap at the oil cooler.

Ron, my engine has the new style heads so it measures coolant temp, but yes, at the heads and not in the location you describe.

The MGL EMS has calibration curves for the VDO sensors used in the Rotax. But yes, how accurate they are is unknown until verified. All grounds for the EMS run to the engine so I expect some descent accuracy. Will do some verification activities this weekend.

And yes, I am enjoying my mono very much. Now that landing it has become second nature I am really having a good time with it. I only bounce it when I get lazy and don't hold the nose high enough (almost on purpose) but they are just non events. I have 120 hrs on it and I haven't reached a year (started flying it at end of March last year). That's almost twice what I normally fly in a year! And I think I'll put a lot more hours on it this year as I am planning some good trips with it.

Regards,
Chris


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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: To gill or not to gill Reply with quote

Hi Chris I vaguely remember reading about the new style cylinder head but it never stuck in my mind because I have the old style that just measures cylinder head temp. I think what you have is all that's needed to measure coolant temp. One would think that ground of sensors would be terrific, but according to Lockwood especially on an engine with some time on it, grounds can go flaky. They say the Loctite insulates, they want first 2 threads left bare to allow a better ground. I turned a copper pipe to dimensions of senders and soldered a piece of solid #14 Romax wire to it, then clamped to sensor/senders. The ground wire is soldered to the Romax wire, but there is enough of a tail on the Romax to support the wire so chances of a fatigue fracture at the solder joint is way reduced. all ground wires run the the field of tabs on the firewall. The instrument grounds also run to the field of tabs. Here's some pics:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9V331eDH8FS0IuqGX8?e=JD8tAG
Also every electrical connection gets a drop of CRC 2-56 after getting Scotchbrighted, all PIDG connections get bent closed, but I use my small Swiss Army knife small flatblade screwdriver inserted in the lead edge of the PIDG just a small way before bending closed so insertion is made much easier.
I purchased clamps from McMaster:
https://www.mcmaster.com/hose-clamps/tight-seal-bolt-clamps-for-soft-hose-and-tube-8/
The 304 with stainless screw.
I'm not sure if your new engine has the same oil pressure sender as I do, the crappy VDO. I have the original sender only and purchased one from Lockwood with a switch as well. I fooled with both of them and they are off from each other by at least 15%. I have UMA instruments so have some adjustment when I calibrate.
BTW when copper oxidizes it is extremely resistive. When silver tarnishes it's still about 50% conductive. Cool Amp allows you to silver plate. It's a salt, so whatever you are doing make sure you can wash away everything with water. No tapped or blind holes. If something is giving you a hassle, silver plate it. Works with copper and brass. solders very easy. I have a piece of copper in my back yard now a few decades old and the silver plate is still there, all the copper is way beyond conductive. If you ask pretty please, you can get a free sample:
https://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp
They also sell Conducto Lube that's a grease with a lot of silver in it.
I didn't bother silver plating my sensor/senders. Will do so if I have a problem.
Ron


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