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Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop
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brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:12 am Post subject: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

John,



This an uncertified part for use on a non- Certificate of Airworthiness aircraft.  It is just a mechanical stop.  The worst that can happen is it will fall off. It is your responsibility to determine if it is satisfactory for the purpose intended.  If you are unhappy with it, simply make your own part. Your advice and technical knowledge is an asset to our community but I think it is a bit over the top be charging the LAA with " a serious omission for a technical deliverable".

Respectfully

Brian

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On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 8:03 AM John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>

 

 SLA and FDM methods are probably both suitable for the door stop.  I looked but could not find any reference to the material or process used by the LAA on the parts they are selling.  I think that is a serious omission for an engineering deliverable.  

 

 Maybe somebody (Clive) can find out?

 

 The choice of material is important.  Whilst doing work for a large aerospace company based near Cambridge we found that they had specified a 3D printing process for parts that were subjected to human waste liquids and subsequent cleaning with bleach based products.   For cost reasons the 3D parts were left bare (no paint), a situation that could have led to the production of gases banned under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

 

 Having specified and used 3D printed parts over the past 23 years, l can recommend that a surface finish is used on them.  That could be primer and paint or a thin GF or carbon ply (great for preventing surface cracks in FDM prints).

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Brian,



I disagree, an MPD is only issued when there is a serious concern over safety.  To issue the MPD with a very brief (5 flying hours) incorporation requirement confirms there is a major issue and lives are at risk.  Otherwise, why not make it a requirement for the next permit renewal?



The engineering activity that reduces the risk needs to be compliant with the highest standards possible.  By defining a solution and providing drawings, parts and instructions the LAA is now walking into a new room - one that has Liability Dept on the door and for the time being, "Also used occasionally for CAA audits".



I was pointing out the sort of thing that LAA Engineering pulls us up on (meaning: applicants for Mods and new types, etc).  When the 'missing data' might be irrelevant or numerically meaningless.



In this respect, LAA Engineering needs to be demonstrating the process and engineering practice beyond reproach, as per its Exposition.



And I still believe it is a solution that has not fully taken into account the build standard of most UK registered Europas - meaning the location having fasteners installed into is often 'busy' with fuel equipment, electrical wiring looms, microswitches, etc.



This brings us back to the original comment.  Is the supplied material PLA, ABS, Polycarbonate, something else?  In 10 years time if the LAA supplied versions have fallen off, people might be asking what material should we not use?



In addition to the above comment, I have since discovered that at least one LAA inspector (who looks after several Europas) had not had the MPD sent to him.  I do hope that the additional missive has been corrected already.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

At the risk of extending this debate, this is not an MPD. An MPD is a Mandatory Permit Directive, only issued by the CAA.  What has been issued is an Airworthiness Information Leaflet which references a Class A Modification.  The definition of Class A is that it is considered mandatory by the LAA. 



If you have concerns or questions regarding the Mod why not pick up the phone and discuss it with Andy?  We are all on the same side when it comes to keeping us safe.





Brian

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On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 9:24 AM John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>

 

 Brian,

 

 I disagree, an MPD is only issued when there is a serious concern over safety.  To issue the MPD with a very brief (5 flying hours) incorporation requirement confirms there is a major issue and lives are at risk.  Otherwise, why not make it a requirement for the next permit renewal?

 

 The engineering activity that reduces the risk needs to be compliant with the highest standards possible.  By defining a solution and providing drawings, parts and instructions the LAA is now walking into a new room - one that has Liability Dept on the door and for the time being, "Also used occasionally for CAA audits".

 

 I was pointing out the sort of thing that LAA Engineering pulls us up on (meaning: applicants for Mods and new types, etc).  When the 'missing data' might be irrelevant or numerically meaningless.

 

 In this respect, LAA Engineering needs to be demonstrating the process and engineering practice beyond reproach, as per its Exposition.

 

 And I still believe it is a solution that has not fully taken into account the build standard of most UK registered Europas - meaning the location having fasteners installed into is often 'busy' with fuel equipment, electrical wiring looms, microswitches, etc.

 

 This brings us back to the original comment.  Is the supplied material PLA, ABS, Polycarbonate, something else?  In 10 years time if the LAA supplied versions have fallen off, people might be asking what material should we not use?

 

 In addition to the above comment, I have since discovered that at least one LAA inspector (who looks after several Europas) had not had the MPD sent to him.  I do hope that the additional missive has been corrected already.

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=504028#504028

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Brian,

I am having a conversation with you.   I have no reason to call Andy D at this time.  As I said before, there is no such thing as too much safety.

Thanks also for the definition of a mandatory SM.  We have five cats - they all have different names.  But they are all still cats!

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

italianjon

Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 69

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Given the pressures in the background, it is very hard to imagine how the LAA could have acted differently. I'll go into more details in the Chairman's Corner of the next club magazine.

brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:03 am Post subject: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Following feedback on the Standard Mod.  An amended version has just been published and can be found in the list of Europa Standard Mods on the LAA website.  For those owners who have fitted microswitches or other items that make bolting of the stop problematic, this revision approves bonding of the stop to the external surface rather than bolting through the skin.I will not be responding to any comments on this so please direct any questions to LAA Engineering .

Regards

Brian

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On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:53 PM italianjon <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com (jon.catilli(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "italianjon" <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com (jon.catilli(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Given the pressures in the background, it is very hard to imagine how the LAA could have acted differently. I'll go into more details in the Chariman's Corner of the next club magazine.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=504052#504052

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 372

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

So it looks ugly and provides some additional drag and it prevents the hatch closing and the chance of it departing in flight; great, we are all here... how about an internal elbow at the rear bolt that prevents the hatch being locked when misaligned, or lets go further, the elbow pulls the rear of the hatch into alignment before the bolt extends; all aforementioned challenges mitigated; Ugly Factor = 0... Personally part of my pre taxi and pre rollout checks is using my elbow to try and push the rear corner of the door out; easier when two up on this cross check (flight crew arm and crosscheck cabin doors)... from a design perspective the current solution has not been well executed and is adhoc at best; just opinion based on 40 years of design and repair of mechanical stuff.

freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:33 pm Post subject: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

In our discussion of ensuring that the rear shoot bolts are in their proper location, I’ve been struck by the comments about checking by nudging with the pilot’s left elbow to “feel” whether or not the door can be pushed outward (or not). If that is the common manner to assure oneself that he/she is safe to fly, I’m not surprised that some Europas have lost a door, nor am I surprised that LAA has imposed a fix.



While I understand the term “mandatory” as it applies to aircraft registered in the UK, here is a solution which I used to eliminate the risk of losing a door in flight which consists of 3 elements:



1. I fashioned a tab from a scrap of 1/8” foam, and glassed it to the doors in alignment with the seat back/head rest,

2. I installed microswitches, located so as to contact the rear shoot bolts when the door latching mechanism is closed,

3. And I installed 2 green LEDs on my panel.



I’m indebted to Raimo Tolvio for the electrical components basic design.



When closing the pilot’s door, I reach with my right hand and pull the tab inward, while my left hand shoves the latch handle forward. If I have a passenger, before instructing him/her to shove their latch forward, I reach with my right hand around the back of the passenger’s seat back/head rest and pull inward while the passenger shoves the latch forward.



I think of this featherweight little tab as the most important component. The ability to pull the door inward eliminates racking of the door, prevents the shoot bolt from marring the exterior finish, and ensures that the door is properly closed.



The microswitches and the 2 green LEDs on the panel were selected and wired in the simplest fashion in order to eliminate false positives…2 green lights confirm that the door is properly closed...if I don’t have 2 green lights, it’s a no-go.



And of course I use a checklist...



[img]cid:75FF5009-6880-469C-A2B9-BC3D913143DD[/img]

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budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 282
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

I’m about to upset everyone, but I’ll be the bad guy.  



Many of us have expressed opinions about the latest LAA Mod 15833 from the LAA and the directives mandatory time frame to install.  Some have complained the Europa door loss has disturbed the controlling agencies quiet bureaucratic life thereby forcing engineering solutions to be implemented on the double.



My desire is not to upset everyone, I’m not intending to, but more of a reminder of pilot responsibilities and training. 



The UK Europa fliers have lost 8 doors in roughly the last year.  In the US, I see or hear of about one door lost every other year or slightly longer.  This is a real problem for the Europa community.



If we were teenagers, it is like taking the family car out and riding around and you are driving a bit too fast for the T intersection and hit a curb and wall damaging the right front wheel and suspension of the car also.  Costing the family perhaps thousands and increasing insurance rates (perhaps loss of insurance) and weeks of downtime.  The curb you hit is in the historic district of your town.  So, you get grounded, no car privileges and out money as Dad insists you learn the lesson and pay for your mistake.  The mayor has had 8 traffic incidents in this area and directs the city hall to make a law forbidding traffic in this area unless a special collision avoidance equipment system is purchased and installed on all vehicles transiting the historic district.  I know that is a bit much of an example, but let’s take a rather subjective view of objective data from the Europa door loss incidents. 



I’ll condense this down to the vitals and put out a pdf on my website and perhaps the Club will pick it up.  If Andy’s and my data are correct, this may be an essential for our second hand owners to review.  No pilot worth his salt ever turned down training about his aircraft.



If you care to, read the attached draft pdf in work that has more of the details.  None of us have all the answers.  But our cumulative collaboration may drastically reverse a current trend.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly

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Hitchflight

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

 	  budyerly(at)msn.com wrote: 	
		  I’m about to upset everyone, but I’ll be the bad guy.  



Many of us have expressed opinions about the latest LAA Mod 15833 from the LAA and the directives mandatory time frame to install.  Some have complained the Europa door loss has disturbed the controlling agencies quiet bureaucratic life thereby forcing engineering solutions to be implemented on the double.



My desire is not to upset everyone, I’m not intending to, but more of a reminder of pilot responsibilities and training. 



The UK Europa fliers have lost 8 doors in roughly the last year.  In the US, I see or hear of about one door lost every other year or slightly longer.  This is a real problem for the Europa community.



If we were teenagers, it is like taking the family car out and riding around and you are driving a bit too fast for the T intersection and hit a curb and wall damaging the right front wheel and suspension of the car also.  Costing the family perhaps thousands and increasing insurance rates (perhaps loss of insurance) and weeks of downtime.  The curb you hit is in the historic district of your town.  So, you get grounded, no car privileges and out money as Dad insists you learn the lesson and pay for your mistake.  The mayor has had 8 traffic incidents in this area and directs the city hall to make a law forbidding traffic in this area unless a special collision avoidance equipment system is purchased and installed on all vehicles transiting the historic district.  I know that is a bit much of an example, but let’s take a rather subjective view of objective data from the Europa door loss incidents. 



I’ll condense this down to the vitals and put out a pdf on my website and perhaps the Club will pick it up.  If Andy’s and my data are correct, this may be an essential for our second hand owners to review.  No pilot worth his salt ever turned down training about his aircraft.



If you care to, read the attached draft pdf in work that has more of the details.  None of us have all the answers.  But our cumulative collaboration may drastically reverse a current trend.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly 	


Hi Bud 



A welcome addition to the discussion on this very topical subject.  Many thanks for the time and effort you have put in. The Club accepts your offer to publish. Editor Tony Wickens has told me he has been able toinclude in the next Europa Flyer issue. Goes to the publisher this week. So just in time. 



Safety messages need to be circulated as widely as possible. Your article  adds to and in many ways, compliments the words of Ivan, Andy and Brian. Thankyou!

How The Europa Club continues to get the message out:



This excellent Matronics listing routinely has 40 or more people regularly reviewing which surges when a really populate topic such as this one  hits. These readers are often long-standing members of the Europa Community.



The Europa Club Magazine is posted to and read by 422 Europa Club Members three times a year. Including long-standing and second owners of the Europa aircraft.



The Europa Club Website enjoys 2500 - 3000 regular followers. (Definition: Unique IP address logging into The Europa Club website more than twice a month.). Though popular with an anecdotal 40% of the membership viewing regularly, it is the magazine that remains the most popular source of information..



The Europa Club enjoys 89% of Europa aircraft owners as Members worldwide. Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The Netherlands, United Kingdom, Ukraine, United States of America.



There are  informal non Europa Club sponsored groups on social media. These groupings are not necessarily Club sponsored..



The LAA Engineering team wrote to every operator/builder of a Europa within the United Kingdom to promulgate.



Regards



Bob

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 372

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Graphical answer to why europa pilots need to ensure doors are correctly locked before getting airborne and to refrain from opening them in flight... firstly they are positioned in a constant low pressure area trying to tear them off, and secondly once they have departed the airframe about 30% lift is no longer available to maintain altitude...

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clivesutton

Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:47 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Graphical answer . . .



Really interesting graphic, could you post the same for a side view of the aircraft please?



Can i assume its is for a 'clean' Monowheel and for approximately what speed is this?



Thanks in anticipation,

Clive S.

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 372

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:31 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Clean fuselage Clive, 1atm air 25C 100kt level flight, lift 486kg, drag 42kg

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clivesutton

Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Fantastic, thanks for the image and the loads detail. Clive S

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

I think simple CFD is great but think it unwise to distribute snap shot s as they can be taken out of context.   The Europa fuse and canopy Are classic in form and will generate a range of differential pressures depending on speed, alpha, beta and altitude.  



The net lift on the door can be calculated using data from a full sweep.  But that just tells us what we already know - that doors do depart the aircraft if the front pin disengages from the front socket.  



In designing an alternate to the UglyMod, utilising a simple shear pin that  is inserted from inside, we retain the clean external shape of the aircraft.    It prevents the door opening enough to be ripped off.



Emergency opening of the canopy from outside is achieved with a pry bar.



Time will tell if the LAA is receptive.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 372

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

True; and an important note John... the output results are quite different at 50kt, and will be different again at various angles of attack and cross wind factors; often forget not everybody has the same level of insight and subject knowledge (the reader should be aware the images present a very basic preliminary CFD solution and are only indicative by nature and should not be applied as definitive to individual builds or multitude of operational situations)... that being said, have noticed the tip of the shoot bolt is visible when correctly locked; painting the tips with safety orange might be a simple helpful option.. a safety latch to prevent accidental movement of the interior release handle in flight might also aid in-flight integrity

Hitchflight

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

AAIB report updated and published.



Door loss in flight



https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/door-loss-in-flight

spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 305
Location: Kent

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:35 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

If you read the report that pilot had nearly 20 thousand hours however only 4 yes 4 were on type so in my opinion that’s the problem. Also it seems that the pilots door is the issue as most of the door losses are the left hand door. Is this because it’s harder to twist once strapped in to check it’s closed correctly? I find closing the door and checking then strapping in works for me

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

The AAIB report is up to their usual high standard.  However, the trend l can see being analysed is insufficient (or ineffective) aircraft type training and nothing to do with the nominal design of the Europa.  Does it mention non-compliance to the design specification?



I don't see an analysis of the recovered door(s) and measurement of the shoot bolt length against the design requirement.



10 to 12mm of protruding pin is needed.  Is this an inspection item on a Europa permit inspection or renewal? If not, why not?



I have looked at about a dozen Europa since the UglyMod appeared on the scene.  All have different shoot bolt lengths and tapers.  Some are filed to a distinct point whereas others have a minimal taper and have a generous radius at the end.  



As the operation of the door is linked to the dimensions and shape of the  shoot bolts l would have thought this an obvious place to ensure consistency.  Minimum design spec - shoot bolt extended length and shape being the inspection criterion.



The LAA Mod may avoid some clumsy mishandling of the doors, but it does not necessarily fix the root cause.  



Go and measure your shoot bolts.



Now measure the size and shape of the holes in the door surround.  These are nominally a clearance fit to the shoot bolt diameter.  Is the hole clean, would it benefit from a bush (tube) to ensure a good fit with the (proper length) shoot bolt?



Some food for though.  Until the next door off event.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 240

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop

Following on from my last post I reacquainted myself with the build manual sections 34 and 35.



The part DL07 is the guide mounted in the door, this gives the shoot bolt an axis to follow - hence it needs to be aligned accurately such that DL06 (shoot bolt) and the operating rod DL11(F and R) do not bind.



Doing the above should ensure the shoot bolts protrude equally and follow a longitudinal axis.



Drilling and opening up the door-side holes is covered in manual 35.  It states:



"In this step you will be cutting the holes in the door rebates to accept the shoot bolts, but first reinforce the area where the holes will be by applying 4 plies of ‘bid’ 30 mm x 30 mm at the back of the door rebates (unmoulded side). 

Once this layup has fully cured apply a small dab of wet ink, or paint to the very end of the shoot-bolts. With the door fully pushed home, move the door handle towards the closed position until the end of the bolt strikes and, hopefully, leaves a witness mark on the door reveal.



This is your starting point; drill a 1/4" hole and then with a round file carefully open up the hole just enough to allow a shoot bolt guide to fit in the door recess, so that when the shoot-bolts are fully extended, the doors are fully secured and flush with the outside of the fuselage. Use dabs of paint on

the shoot-bolt each time you want to enlarge the hole so that you can see which areas need filing. Shorten the shoot bolt guides so that they protrude only 10 - 12 mm (3/8" - ½") through the door frame and, ensuring that there is a gap of only 1 - 2 mm between the guides in the door and the frame, bond them in with Araldite 420 and flox."



I would suggest that there should be another bush (like DL07) that goes into the doorframe moulding.  This could be CNC machined (or 3D printed in a durable material).  The initial opening would 'collect' the DL06 shoot-bolt taper and guide it into the new bushing.



An enlarged flange on this new bushing could be made to act in a similar way to the UglyMod moulding - i.e. preventing the shoot-bolt from moving rearwards if misaligned.



In summary

1. There seems to be a wide tolerance on shoot-bolt length.

2. Physical examination of Europa shoot-bolts suggests that the end taper and radius of the bolt is highly variable.

3. The locking mech in the door has a nice bushing/guide.

4. The shoot-bolt on the doorframe locates into a plain hole that has no dimensional tolerances (ref build manual 35).  The dimension given has no datum and may be open to misinterpretation.

5. A doorframe mounted bushing - correctly designed, should enable more accurate engagement of the shoot-bolt.

6. Are the shoot-bolts installed in aircraft sufficiently long?



Discuss.......

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

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