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Position indicator needed

 
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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

Hi Group. I need a display for Actuonix P version of P16. Actuator has a 5,800 ohm potentiometer, it ranges from 0 to 5,800 when running actuator in and out. We tried Actuonix display but it has a internal wiring flaw the way they designed circuit around a TI LM3914 IC. They sent a replacement and it has same flaw. The way they want it wired is to supply 12 + and (-)volts to the actuator pot and the wiper is pulling voltage off it (voltage divider). Thx. Ron P.

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Last edited by rparigoris on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:03 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

At 05:26 PM 7/7/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>

Hi Group. I need a display for Actuonix P version of P16. Actuator has a 5,800 ohm potentiometer, it ranges from 0 to 5,800 when running actuator in and out. We tried Actuonix display but it has a internal wiring flaw the way they designed circuit around a TI LM394 IC. They sent a replacement and it has same flaw. The way they want it wired is to supply 12 + and (-)volts to the actuator pot and the wiper is pulling voltage off it (voltage divider). Thx. Ron P.

Do you have a schematic of the acutuonix system?
Does the pot in the actuator have 2 or 3 wires
coming out? Is the display bar graph, analog,
lcd, . . . . ?



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

On 7/7/2020 5:26 PM, rparigoris wrote:
Quote:


Hi Group. I need a display for Actuonix P version of P16. Actuator has a 5,800 ohm potentiometer, it ranges from 0 to 5,800 when running actuator in and out. We tried Actuonix display but it has a internal wiring flaw the way they designed circuit around a TI LM394 IC. They sent a replacement and it has same flaw. The way they want it wired is to supply 12 + and (-)volts to the actuator pot and the wiper is pulling voltage off it (voltage divider). Thx. Ron P.

Hi Ron,


Are you sure you have that IC # correct? The 394 is a matched pair of
NPN transistors in one case. Not sure why you'd need that for a position
indicator.

Could it be an LM3914? The 3914 is a 10 segment LED driver/level
indicator (likely what you want). The 3914 will work as a voltmeter,
which is what you want to display the varying voltage from the position
pot. Have you measured the wiper voltage with a regular voltmeter as you
move the actuator? If the voltage is 'stuck' at 12V, odds are that the
ground end of the potentiometer isn't grounded. This assumes that the
potentiometer is actually moving with the actuator.

If you have a variable power supply, you can check the other end of the
system by feeding a varying voltage into the indicator's sense input.
Even a string of 1.5V batteries would give you stepped voltages to feed
the indicator's input.

Charlie

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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

Hi Bob
Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.pdf
It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes into the red of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he can't see how their unit can possibly work.
Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out trace going to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I found the two ends of the adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and ground, the wiper goes to pin 5 (signal in). The wiper of the pot in the actuator also goes to pin five with the ends wired to +12 and ground (Feedback potentiometer negative reference rail and Feedback potentiometer positive reference rail according to P16 instruction manual). With this configuration, it is easy to see a short circuit occurring when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12 or GND) and the adjustment pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There is no protection ie. limiting resistors, off the ends of the indicator pot to limit current in this condition. Likewise, with the indicator pot acting as the voltage divider for signal-in, I could not measure any variation in signal-in voltage even with as little as 200 ohms at the actuator pot wiper. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has gotten this to work without modification, if so, can you provide details?

Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
Ron P.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:50 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

On 7/7/2020 6:49 PM, rparigoris wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> (rparigor(at)hotmail.com)

Hi Bob
Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.pdf
It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes into the red of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he can't see how their unit can possibly work.
Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out trace going to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I found the two ends of the adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and ground, the wiper goes to pin 5 (signal in). The wiper of the pot in the actuator also goes to pin five with the ends wired to +12 and ground (Feedback potentiometer negative reference rail and Feedback potentiometer positive reference rail according to P16 instruction manual). With this configuration, it is easy to see a short circuit occurring when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12 or GND) and the adjustment pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There is no protection ie. limiting resistors, off the ends of the indicator pot to limit current in this condition. Likewise, with the indicator pot acting as the voltage divider for signal-in, I could not measure any variation in signal-in voltage even with as little as 200 ohms at the actuator pot wiper. I'd be inter!

ested to know if anyone else has gotten this to work without modification, if so, can you provide details?

Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
Ron P.
Circuit description for the likely IC being uses is here:
https://components101.com/ics/lm3914-dot-bar-display-driver

From the text, below the circuit demo animation:

Simply power the IC using the V+ and V- and the analog signal voltage is given to pin 5. Here we have used 9V to power the IC to monitor an analogy voltage of 0-5V.  Always note that the voltage used to power the IC (here 9V) should be at least 1.5V more that the monitoring voltage(here 5V).

Note that max input voltage should always be at least 1.5V lower than supply voltage.

If you search for 'LM3914 level meter', you should find dozens of hits on both ebay and Amazon, in addition to other vendors.

Hope that helps,

Charlie
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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

Hi Charlie
Yes it's a LM3914 not LM394, dumb thumb. Here's my partner Wayne that will comment:
Hi Charlie, Thanks for the feedback and I agree with you the 3914 should be operating as a voltmeter. The pot in the actuator is fine, the problem is that Actuonix didn't follow proper design (in my opinion) and wired an "adjustment" pot into the circuit alongside the 3914 whereby its directly across +12 and ground. Its wiper is in parallel with pin 5 (signal input) AND the wiper from the actuator pot. I think you can figure out what happens when one pot is adjusted towards ground and the other (like the actuator) starts heading towards +12. Full battery short circuit taking out traces on the LM3914 circuit board. Difficult to fix because critical traces are all under the DIP IC, we're just looking for a mounted 3914 without this flaw, I suspect a voltage following op amp would serve as a trim on pin 5 so as to adjust full scale when the actuator is extended.

Thanks, Wayne


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

At 06:49 PM 7/7/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>

Hi Bob
Sorry no schematic just a data sheet:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Position+Indicator+Datasheet.pdf
It's a 3 wire LED Bar Graph with 10 LEDs.
The 5,800ohm pot gets wired as a voltage divider and the wiper goes into the red of the indicator. My build partner is a EE and say he can't see how their unit can possibly work.
Here's what Wayne wrote to company:
I opened up the first indicator that failed and found a burned-out trace going to the adjustment pot. Upon drawing out the circuit I found the two ends of the adjustment pot wired directly to +12 and ground, the wiper goes to pin 5 (signal in). The wiper of the pot in the actuator also goes to pin five with the ends wired to +12 and ground (Feedback potentiometer negative reference rail and Feedback potentiometer positive reference rail according to P16 instruction manual). With this configuration, it is easy to see a short circuit occurring when the actuator is near or at its limit (+12 or GND) and the adjustment pot is turned to near the opposite rail. There is no protection ie. limiting resistors, off the ends of the indicator pot to limit current in this condition. Likewise, with the indicator pot acting as the voltage divider for signal-in, I could not measure any variation in signal-in voltage even with as little as 200 ohms at the actuator pot wiper. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has gotten this to work without modification, if so, can you provide details?

Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
Ron P.

That drawing is a classic example of how NOT
to sell a DIY wiring job . . . further, from
what I am able to glean from the writer's narrative,
it seems that the products in hand have
manufacturing/design defects on some level.

Here's what an exemplar wiring diagram MIGHT
look like for that system

https://tinyurl.com/y8ywpf78

It could not be simpler but perhaps unnecessarily
complicated due to defects in hardware?



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:52 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

Quote:

Would be great if we could adapt an off the shelf unit. Alsochecked with Dynon and our D10A can not take an input and display.
Ron P.

Here's one possibility but it's pretty pricey

https://tinyurl.com/y7k6c5ht

This is such a simple device . . . too bad
the current offering is so short on info and
perhaps quality.

Maybe this could be an open source venture for
the List. I can get housings 3D printed.
Do any of you guy's feel like crafting
a little board to mount the jelly-beans?


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

On 7/7/2020 8:45 PM, rparigoris wrote:
Quote:


Hi Charlie
Yes it's a LM3914 not LM394, dumb thumb. Here's my partner Wayne that will comment:
Hi Charlie, Thanks for the feedback and I agree with you the 3914 should be operating as a voltmeter. The pot in the actuator is fine, the problem is that Actuonix didn't follow proper design (in my opinion) and wired an "adjustment" pot into the circuit alongside the 3914 whereby its directly across +12 and ground. Its wiper is in parallel with pin 5 (signal input) AND the wiper from the actuator pot. I think you can figure out what happens when one pot is adjusted towards ground and the other (like the actuator) starts heading towards +12. Full battery short circuit taking out traces on the LM3914 circuit board. Difficult to fix because critical traces are all under the DIP IC, we're just looking for a mounted 3914 without this flaw, I suspect a voltage following op amp would serve as a trim on pin 5 so as to adjust full scale when the actuator is extended.

Thanks, Wayne
Agree; any trim pot should have the 'top' tied to the source, and the

wiper tied to the 3914's input pin. Any chance you could just modify the
circuit?

Also, the pinout shown on the data sheet for your display seemed a bit
weird, with signal on red and B+ on white. Can you verify that the wire
colors go where the data sheet says they go?

If you don't have any luck with a fix, here's one possibility as a
replacement.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LM3914-10-Segment-5V-12V-Battery-Capacity-Power-Level-LED-Indicator-Display-Kit-/153106868480?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=452950159370
Charlie

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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Position indicator needed Reply with quote

Hi Group No joy with Actuonix. I have 2 burned up indicators and the internal potentiometer wires going into unit melted. I urged them to bench test an actuator with an indicator from same batch sent me. They finally got back to me and said that their test works fine. They asked I ship back and they will repair under warranty if it's defective. The actuator is working fine, I think if I sent stuff back it's going to be a long drawn out battle with no joy in end. I purchased a Ray Allen RP4 Indicator and POS 12 Position Sender. More work because had to install additional sender. That said Ray Allen components very high quality and amazing as it seems works perfectly! Ron P.

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