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dbflr

Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 13
Location: PA

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: START IGNIT CB

i wanted to stay out of but you just keep going...



what "useful to know information" you are stating ? that it's ok to rotate the engine and then

"simply unground the P lead " ? you never heard about M-14P with M-9F kicking back and reversing rotation because KP-4716 did not engage to spool it to sufficiently high RPM ?



doesn't M9-35 magneto still have 25 deg. advance below 800RPM ?  you know what such reversal does to electric starter and gear ring teeth ? can show.



why those russians mounted PK-45 ignition unit there if you can "simply unground the P lead " ?

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:32 pm Post subject: START IGNIT CB

FACT- The Russians never did it. It was aN afterthought creation of the Aerostar factory back in 2000 when they decided to build the Yak52TW, which was essentially a US design to begin with.



People were having difficulty starting the TWâ€™s with PF engines with -35 mags. They were trying to start them like a stock 52 with M9F mags. That didnâ€™t work.  Once they figured out how to properly start the engine with -35 mags, the p-lead booster was irrelevant. 

Dennis



Dennis



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 18, 2020, at 5:30 PM, dbflr <le_vix(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 i wanted to stay out of but you just keep going...

 

 what "useful to know information" you are stating ? that it's ok to rotate the engine and then

 "simply unground the P lead " ? you never heard about M-14P with M-9F kicking back and reversing rotation because KP-4716 did not engage to spool it to sufficiently high RPM ?

 

 doesn't M9-35 magneto still have 25 deg. advance below 800RPM ?  you know what such reversal does to electric starter and gear ring teeth ? can show.

 

 why those russians mounted PK-45 ignition unit there if you can "simply unground the P lead " ?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495894#495894

johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:42 pm Post subject: START IGNIT CB

Agreed,



Both these men have always freely given their expert advice and have helped hundreds. 

Regards,

John Nolan



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:59 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:



ï»¿

         AND Mark Bitterlich is also an expert who has helped hundreds of people on this list when they've had issues.  Especially when it comes to electrical issues.

Dennis



                  

                                                                    On Saturday, April 18, 2020, 11:25:35 AM EDT, mark bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                 And at least you're an "expert" and not an ass-hat Dennis. Just sayin.  Have a nice day and remember the next time some poor soul calls you for help FOR FREE that not all people are as rude and obnoxious as this troll. 



And yes Dennis is an expert who has taught classes on these engines and airframes WORLD WIDE. 

I'm just a retired Marine.





Mark Bitterlich

New Bern N.C. (EWN)

First hangar on the left dbflr





-------- Original message --------

From: Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> 

Date: 4/18/20  07:33  (GMT-05:00) 

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: Re: Re: START IGNIT CB 



--> Yak-List message posted by: Anthony Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>



If you read the next post I made, DBFLR, starting with â€œOopsâ€, you would have seen I immediately corrected myself.

 

At least I DO sign my name to my posts 

Dennis 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 17, 2020, at 9:11 PM, dbflr <le_vix(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿--> Yak-List message posted by: "dbflr" <le_vix(at)hotmail.com>

 

 one "expert" wrote :

 

 "The -35 Mag equipped engine is often started without a "PK-45" or any other well known device supplying "low voltage pulses" to the P lead. How? Ungrounding the P lead and using electric start to crank the engine."

 

 SURE ! you can start many engines by spooling it up to 80+% and then flipping ignition switch.  is that SOP ?  NO !  read the original manual instead of arguing.

 

 

 another "expert" revealed:

 

 " The PK-45 starting coiling is connected directly to the trailing finger of the rotor rotating in the counterclockwise direction and supplies a constant spark to that finger and thus to the spark plug wire contact point in the distributor cap for as long as the start button is held down."

 

 no it's not. because PK-45 is a LOW VOLTAGE output  device. what part of "low"  is so confusing ?  didn't you read this thread ?  PK-45 works with

 M9-35 and there's  no "trailing finger" in it.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495879#495879

 

 

 

 

 

 

=          - The Yak-List Em=                         - p;                         -Ma=================

dbflr

Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 13
Location: PA

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: START IGNIT CB

>>>FACT- The Russians never did it. It was aN afterthought creation of the Aerostar factory back in 2000 when they decided to build the Yak52TW, which was essentially a US design to begin with



did what ? go figure !  added electric starter ?  did i imply they did ???



>>>People were having difficulty starting the TWâ€™s with PF engines with -35 mags. They were trying to start them like a stock 52 with M9F mags. That didnâ€™t work.  Once they figured out how to properly start the engine with -35 mags, the p-lead booster was irrelevant. 



 yes, i'm intrigued. so since 70's russians were starting these engines with -35 mags "improperly" ? and in 2000 someone figured out how to do it "properly" thereby external

ignition exciter is not needed ? so, there's no such unit on 52TW since it's no longer needed ?  



i'm just trying to figure out what exactly your cryptic message says.  any reference to 

or a description of this "proper" start procedure ?

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:31 pm Post subject: START IGNIT CB

FAGEDABOUDIT.  Iâ€™m finished having any further discussion with you.  Go find another group to troll. 

Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 18, 2020, at 8:28 PM, dbflr <le_vix(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 ï»¿

>>> FACT- The Russians never did it. It was aN afterthought creation of the Aerostar factory back in 2000 when they decided to build the Yak52TW, which was essentially a US design to begin with.

 did what ? go figure !  added electric start ?  did i imply they did ???

>>> People were having difficulty starting the TWâ€™s with PF engines with -35 mags. They were trying to start them like a stock 52 with M9F mags. That didnâ€™t work.  Once they figured out how to properly start the engine with -35 mags, the p-lead booster was irrelevant. 

 yes, i'm intrigued. so since 70's russians were starting these engines with -35 mags "improperly" ? and in 2000 someone figured out how to do it "properly" thereby external

 ignition exciter is not needed ? so, there's no such unit on 52TW since it's no longer needed ?  

 i'm just trying to figure out what exactly your cryptic message says.  any reference to 

 or a description of this "proper" start procedure ?

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495897#495897

markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:32 pm Post subject: START IGNIT CB

Mr. Anonymous with no name says: 



 	  Quote: 	
		  "what useful to know information" you are stating ? that it's ok to rotate

the engine and then simply unground the P lead  ? you never heard about
	


M-14P with M-9F kicking back and reversing rotation because KP-4716 did not

engage to spool it to sufficiently high RPM ?"



Yes, I have heard about that.  That is why you start an M-14 with M9F mags

with the mag switch turned off.   But ....  Last time I checked, I was

talking about -35M mags.  You know, the ones that only have one rotor point?

The ones with centrifugal advance?   



 	  Quote: 	
		  "doesn't M9-35 magneto still have 25 deg. advance below 800RPM ?  you know

what such reversal does to electric starter and gear ring teeth ? can show."
	


I think you are somewhat confused regarding how -35M mags work.   The timing

at initial start on a -35M mag is the same whether you simply unground the P

lead, and rotate the engine, or if you pulse the -35M internal coil and

rotate the engine.  I assumed you had the manual for these mags.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  "why those russians mounted PK-45 ignition unit there if you can "simply

unground the P lead " ?
	




Because the Russians used pneumatic start exclusively which is well known to

spin the engine very slowly, especially when hot, and when the air bottle

runs low.  You will notice that every time I talked about this method with

-35M mags, I mentioned a number of M-14 equipped aircraft with ELECTRIC

START.  The electric starter spins the mags fast enough for the mag to fire

the plugs without external excitation.  



It is a useful thing to know, and it is not in any Russian manual, hence the

purpose of the Yak List.  To share experiences, observations, and things we

all have learned.  For others it offers a different opportunity.  

Mark Bitterlich

--

markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:38 pm Post subject: START IGNIT CB

I'm going to make pubic a feeling I have regarding this gent.  



Anyone who refuses to give their name on the Yak List should be totally ignored.    



Enough is enough.  This gent is a troll, and should be treated as such.  He takes pleasure in stirring up bad feelings.  There have been many arguments and debates on the Yak List, and I personally have been involved in more than one, but I never did it while refusing to identify myself and neither has anyone else I can remember, right/wrong/indifferent.  



Mark

--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:10 am Post subject: START IGNIT CB

Good idea.  If he persists, I'm going to send an email to Matt Draille and ask him to block this a-hole from any of the Matronics lists.



                  

                                                                    On Saturday, April 18, 2020, 10:40:22 PM EDT, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Bitterlich" <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)>



I'm going to make pubic a feeling I have regarding this gent.  



Anyone who refuses to give their name on the Yak List should be totally ignored.    



Enough is enough.  This gent is a troll, and should be treated as such.  He takes pleasure in stirring up bad feelings.  There have been many arguments and debates on the Yak List, and I personally have been involved in more than one, but I never did it while refusing to identify myself and neither has anyone else I can remember, right/wrong/indifferent.  



Mark



--

GeorgeCoy

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 308

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:17 am Post subject: START IGNIT CB

Good Morning from a beautiful sunny day here in Vermont where we are all self-isolated.

	I concur with Mark about ignoring people who refuse to sign their name to their posts.

	I pretty much have been ignoring this whole conversation. I do however wish to correct a statement that Denis made. 

	The electric start was an innovation that Motorstar in Romania made at my request. We were selling new and overhauled M14P engines into the homebuilt market. It occurred to me that there was little sense in homebuilders making an entire air system that was only used for starting the engine when they already had an electrical system. I bought a starter from my friend Bill Bainbridge at B&C and sent it to the Motorstar factory. They developed the electric start system. 

	About the same time I had bought a large quantity of new old stock M9V-26  helicopter engines and sent them to the Motorstar factory for parts. That was the source for the M9-35 magnetos. 

	With the relatively low compression ratio of the M14 engines, the electric start was able to turn the engine over as several hundred RPM. We recommended the starting procedure used for the AI 14 engines that had the M9-25 or -35 magnetos. That is using a vibrator to supply square wave voltage to the magneto coil as Mark described. Initially using the Russian units and subsequently with the Slick start electronic vibrators. 

	As Dennis properly pointed out, we soon learned that this was unnecessary and it was easier to start the engine by simply turning  it over with the starter and turning the mags on once it was rotating at several hundred rpm. 

	When we developed the Yak-52TW we offered them with just the air start, or dual start (air and electric). The TW was again our innovation. The idea was originally started by my friend Les Crowder in McKinney Texas. He started to build a retractable gear Yak 52. When Aerostar approached me to make a follow on order the Yak52W that we had jointly developed, I decided there was a wider market for a WWII looking aircraft. Thus the 52TW was born.  

	P.S. we also designed and built the parts for a Yak 52 without an air system. It used an electro hydraulic pump and hydraulic cylinders for the gear and a full electric flap actuator. Only one was ever built. 

George Coy



--

markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:00 am Post subject: START IGNIT CB

Concur. 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 8:08 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: START IGNIT CB

Good idea.  If he persists, I'm going to send an email to Matt Draille and ask him to block this a-hole from any of the Matronics lists.

On Saturday, April 18, 2020, 10:40:22 PM EDT, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote: 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Bitterlich" <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com (markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com)>

I'm going to make pubic a feeling I have regarding this gent.  

Anyone who refuses to give their name on the Yak List should be totally ignored.    

Enough is enough.  This gent is a troll, and should be treated as such.  He takes pleasure in stirring up bad feelings.  There have been many arguments and debates on the Yak List, and I personally have been involved in more than one, but I never did it while refusing to identify myself and neither has anyone else I can remember, right/wrong/indifferent.  

Mark

--

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