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MIG or TIG?
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womenfly2



Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Just some background here. I worked for Union Carbide in SC at their welding Div. We made every type of welding equipment there is in house under the trade-name LINDE, L-Tec. Now ESAB.

I worked on the welding process and equipment for welding the titanium sheets for the SR 71, pressure hulls for nuclear subs at General Dynamics and many a ship built in New Port News VA. I have designed, engineered and tested Millers, Lincolns, and off-shore brands.

In the past I would say the off-shore welders were as WW stated, but today they are just as good for the dollar. Price does not mean quality or its the best.

Practice develops skill, understanding is knowledge. I would always encourage anyone to go to their local Tech-school and take a welding course, or your local welding shop and ask if they could give you a few lessons on welding. This will give you the back ground and knowledge to understand the weld process and practice correctly.

Mike .... So many opinions, just read them all an make the best decision for yourself.

WW, thanks for your informative input.

Cheers,
WF2


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:45 am    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

i learned to weld about 3 years ago. An old buddy had a pacemaker put in. Thou shalt not mess with electricity if thou hast a pacemaker. He wanted  2 inch steel pipe corner posts and gate posts for his farm. So i told him I would do it if he taught me how. About 1/2 of my work ended up buried.
 
I learned a lot and later fixed some antique bed frames and other small items. BUT I would not want to fly on my welds.
 
I like to weld.
 
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:56 AM, womenfly2 <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com (Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com (Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com)>

Just some background here. I worked for Union Carbide in SC at there welding Div. We made every type of welding equipment there is in house under the trade-name LINDE, L-Tec. Now ESAB.

I worked on the welding process and equipment for welding the titanium sheets for the SR 71, pressure hulls for nuclear subs at General Dynamics and many a ship built in New Port News VA. I have designed, engineered and tested Millers, Lincolns, and off-shore brands.

In the past I would say the off-shore welders were as you stated, but today they are just as good for the dollar. Price does not mean quality or its the best.

Practice develops skill, understanding is knowledge. I would always encourage anyone to go to their local Tech-school and take a welding course, or your local welding shop and ask if they could give you a few lessons on welding. This will give you the back ground and knowledge to understand the weld process and practice correctly.

Mike .... So many opinions, just read them all an make the best decision for yourself.

WW, thanks for your informative input.

Cheers,
WF2

--------






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Pocono John



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Stroudsburg, PA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Larry M wrote:
I'd like to learn to weld. My best idea to date is to attend an EAA seminar and start making scrap metal.

Other ideas?
TIG or gas?

Thanks


I took the EAA seminar. For me, it seemed more as an introduction to welding. When I got home, I still wanted to find a school that taught it or someone to coach me. No luck.

So, I gave up and will pay a welder to do it for me. I had posted stuff from another forum on the subject, but after reading WW's post below, I deleted it.

Good luck!


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William Wynne



Joined: 06 Feb 2014
Posts: 142
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

John,
I am sure the people who wrote those comments are nice guys, but they are also full of crap. Airplane building is a serious subject, and people who spread old wives tales and BS are an impediment to learning, progress and safety. We would be better off if people like that resisted offering bogus advice, but since this will never happen, I implore builder who's goal is to learn build and fly to stop taking advice from people who spread myths.
.
If you drive a car with a manual transmission, you use both hands and both feet for different operations, so the comment about using a tig pedal is ignorant. You also need to use both feet to fly a Piet or a Hatz, so that guy shouldn't be building either.

.

If you look at the top photo here : http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ you will see a picture of Robert Bean, my personal mentor is welding, finest welder I ever met, Worked for the USAF and Johnson Controls at the cape. Finest human being I will likely ever meet in aviation. Killed in a weather related Glassair III crash. I would gladly shave 10 years off my life to add another week to his. Of all the friends I have lost in accidents, loosing Bob is the only one I have not learned to cope with.

.

Bob Bean of closing gaps with a tig welder, when people said the myth you have to have close fits : "If an grown man can step across it without a running start, I can weld it shut"

.

I have been tig welding for 20 years, and gas welding for 15 before that. I can close any gap with a tig welder easier than I can with a gas welder, period. With tig you can much more effectively throttle the heat, and not melt the edge away. When trying to do this with gas, amateurs are always pulling the torch away, and exposing the red hot metal to ambient air, allowing it to oxidize and murdering its potential strength. With tig the post fly keeps the weld bathed even if the weld stops.

.

The comments on heat affected zone are BS also, as well as the comments about needing to normalize tig welds. All of this has been disproven with extensive industry testing. Real welders working on aerobatic planes use specific rod and techniques that need no heat treatment. Go to the SPA panther website and look that they have made about 30 very complex aerobatic fuselages this year. Their primary to welders are Vern (from my last post) and Travis. Dan Weseman is a very good welder himself, and he extensively researched the finest details of the welds for his design. It is all done with Lincoln 225's with micro start ER-60 rod and no post weld heating.

.

The very concept of gas welding being 'forgiving' is a joke. I have seen more screwed up gas welds on homebuilts than tig. I have heard every stupid comment like "These welds are like a gorilla, ugly but strong." If it looks poor, it is, period. Gas welding is the subject I taught at Riddle. The A&P students in 1992-95 were required to spend 120 hours in the lab with a torch in their hand. They got pretty good, but the average age was 20, the eyesight was good, and the concentration was good. The problem with gas welding today is the same as tailwheels, the lack of good first hand instruction available. The EAA workshops were taught by Earl Luce, who is good, but 3 days isn't anything but an introduction.

.

A Positive Idea: Go to Oshkosh, and politely spend several days with instructors there, they are very good. My Booth is 616 every year, and for the last 18 years I have given Corvair forums right next to the welders. I park in lot W right behind them. Every day on the way out I spend a bit of time with the Lincoln staff. First class people there to share a skill. Yet 50% of the people in the 100 seats are stupidly and rudely staring at their smart phones while these guys teach. Lincoln provides an excellent base group of literature in a convenient red bag....at the end of the demonstration, the people who yammered on their smart phones often wander off like distracted cows leaving the bag where ever it fell off their laps, to wander off and shove a brat into their faces. The instructors are to nice to say much, but if anyone shows up who genuinely wants to LEARN, they will bend over backwards to help that guy. Suggestion: just show up and learn, and don't repeat old wives tails about required close fits, just learn.-ww.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

It's seems like these discussions always turn into a China vs USA debate.

I wasn't asking about brands. ( I have a Miller 211). I was just wondering wether a Tig or Mig process would be better suited to building a Piet. It seems like all the fittings are made from steel as far as I can tell. I was thinking a Mig welder would be fine putting these parts together.

I understand a TIG welder would probably have better looking welds because of the better control.


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William Wynne



Joined: 06 Feb 2014
Posts: 142
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Mike,

If you own a great tig welder, and know how to use it, I don't understand what would be the consideration for making any Piet part with a mig welder.
.
I have all kinds of welders in my hangar, there is a steel tube fuselage for a Piet out there right now, I have welded several others and made several dozen mounts, a pile of gear legs, fittings and stainless exhausts : http://flycorvair.net/2012/11/08/pietenpol-products-motor-mounts-gear-and-instalation-components/ and I would not chose a mig to make any of it if Tig was readily available
.
I am tired right now, but I can not think of a single welded aluminum structural fitting on a light plane. Even aluminum lift struts on certified planes have bolt in fittings. There is probably an exception to this, but for the most part welding fittings on light planes are steel.
.
Although you might not like it, making builders aware that they need to be vigilant around Chinese products for flying is important. This isn't abstract political bashing from me because they are a giant police state. It is first hand, real world observation. Get a look at this http://flycorvair.net/2012/01/15/chinese-crankshafts/
I am not going to apologize for reminding builders to be vigilant, especially when the distributor goes out of their way to obscure the origins of the part. -ww.


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Santal



Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Posts: 2
Location: Wilmington

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

I think I'll bump this one and give you my two cents as I have my own opinion on this one

I have never used a 220 VAC MIG welder before but asking a lot of questions before I bought mine (one of them was from a friend who repaired welders for a living), there are some things to point out.

Unlike a 240 VAC welder, you cannot just go out and move from the max 3/16 material (usually considered the limit to a one pass weld with a 120VAC MIG Welder) to heavier materials; gas shielded welding does not allow you that extra bit the shielded wire does. Gas does not let you weld in heavy winds (outside hopefully) like shielded wire does but shielded wire welding is messy like ARC welding is. Going from shielded wire to gas, in most of the small machines, requires a different liner and (maybe) changing the polarity of the electrical connection (its been too long since I did my setup).

Some things to consider:
• can you get parts for the welder,
• can it be repaired locally, can it be converted to work with gas or must it be limited to using shielded wire welding (advantages… maybe).
• Remember, 120 welders are light weight welders and not really that comparable to a 220 unit. They do a good job within their limitations but also have a service limit (I forget the proper word) that is lower than what a 220 unit would have.

Of the welders that usually would meet the conditions above, there are three I would recommend:
1. the Miller that has adjustable power settings along with adjustable wire setting,
2. The Miller is closely followed by the Lincoln unit which has similar features.
3. The Hobart would be the third because it still has preset power settings and its welding tips use a different thread count so they could be harder to find.
Each of these machines is usually available, and can be serviced, most anywhere you go. (I didn't know that Eastwood had gone the additional variable switch that DWP has talked about)

That being said, I have two Hobart welders and like them very well. The Hobart 120 is the unit that had the technology that Miller was after when it bought out Hobart. I also have a Hobart 135 which is a good welder but in my opinion just not as good as the 120. I have not had any problems with the 135, but it does feel different.

If you happened to catch it, this last weekend Extreme 4X4 had a show (rerun) on MIG welding and how to set them up and in a couple of places gas was discussed and so was wire choice.

One other thing that has been said; an extension cord or a long power cord is not always the best thing to use. The voltage drop can be very noticeable, especially if you do not use a cord with a gage of wire that is compatible with the voltage needed over the length of the power cord. Commercial extension cords have a tendency to be too light of weight to satisfactorily be used with a welder.

I hope this helps.

All the best

New Project: https://customrigsmag.com/


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tsts4



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

So I start an evening, part-time basic welding course at my local tech college next week. The curriculum is Stick, Flux core and MIG. My question for the experts is, is it possible for me to teach myself TIG, assuming I become competent at the other processes at the end of the course? I've watched a lot of YouTube on TIG and scoured the welding forums but have not been able to draw a conclusion one way or the other.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:37 am    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

I haven't done a lot of TIG welding, but the process is more similar to
Oxy/Acetylene gas welding than any of the offerings in your course.  If
you can make it to Sun-N-Fun or Oshkosh the major manufacturers of TIG
equipment could probably get you started.  I taught myself how to gas
weld using the Finch text and my landing gear and motor mount have
lasted for 10 years Smile   Gas equipment is a bit cheaper so you might
want to consider that route too.
Ben Charvet
On 1/21/2020 10:54 AM, tsts4 wrote:
Quote:


So I start an evening, part-time basic welding course at my local tech college next week. The curriculum is Stick, Flux core and MIG. My question for the experts is, is it possible for me to teach myself TIG, assuming I become competent at the other processes at the end of the course? I've watched a lot of YouTube on TIG and scoured the welding forums but have not been able to draw a conclusion one way or the other.

--------
Todd Stovall
aka &quot;Auburntsts&quot; on EAA and VAF
RV-10 N728TT -- Flying


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tsts4



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

bencharvet(at)gmail.com wrote:
I haven't done a lot of TIG welding, but the process is more similar to
Oxy/Acetylene gas welding than any of the offerings in your course.  If
you can make it to Sun-N-Fun or Oshkosh the major manufacturers of TIG
equipment could probably get you started.  I taught myself how to gas
weld using the Finch text and my landing gear and motor mount have
lasted for 10 years Smile   Gas equipment is a bit cheaper so you might
want to consider that route too.
Ben Charvet



Good suggestion on the airshow TIG courses. We'll be at both SNF (we only live 35 min from Lakeland) and Osh. The workshop schedule for SNF shows 2 TIG workshops daily and my basic welding course finishes up the week prior to SNF so the timing is perfect.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

MIG is great for aluminum fab work. Remember that your shield gas varies for what alloy / material you intend to weld and you'll be wanting to learn all about AC vs DC and polarity. (Don't paint yourself into a corner by limiting your rig to a DC only inverter.) I think most repair shops will do more MIGing than TIGing. Outside work will be stick welded.
TIG is fantastic for chromoly (41xx) work and you'll see most fab shops go this route. Gas welding is far easier to master IMHO - not that TIG welding cannot be mastered by the non professional. The equipment and maint. costs will be higher for TIG and some claim the cost per welded inch is lower. The upside to TIG for fabrication work is that once your shop is set up, etc. you can weld more feet per hour hence it's ideal for commercial fabrication and manufacturing where your highest op costs are labour.
Where with Oxy Acetylene your shield is the actual flame, in TIG and MIG it's the inert gas - which is very easily disturbed. I've seen a lot of small fab outfits running shop fans and complaining about weld quality. You'll be wanting VERY STILL air. Indoors only, please.
Because of the various material sizes, thicknesses and various joint types, you'll be on that heat pedal like a rock guitarist. You need three limbs to TIG weld properly. (One for the electrode, one for the feed material (NOT a coat hanger) and one for the pedal. If you think you can put two parts together without jigs and clamps look to other materials.)
In summary, while MIG is useful, fairly easy to learn and a lot of fun, it's not really suitable to tube welding and I don't like it for chromoly. TIG is fantastic once mastered but the barriers to entry are higher than for gas welding. Done properly, both gas and TIG are identical in quality and strength. Any welding with electricity seems to want a good solid steel welding table. (We're talking light work here - not rail lines or locomotives.)
For my projects to date, I've tack welded my work with Oxy/Acet and then taken it to a professional shop or had a mobile welder come to finish weld. The fab work is the most labour intensive and I am not the kind of person who loves to smoke steel anyway so I think in the scheme of things, this did not turn out to be any costlier but took far less of my time and left me with a higher confidence in the finished work, esp engine mounts and wing attachment hardware. Certainly it has kept my equipment costs down. Some of my projects are still finished by pros who prefer gas - and it's not a generational thing either. If you plan to galvanize, finish plate, anodize, etc your parts the shop may be able to provide all this for a lower cost. Take all your parts in at the same time and don't be in a hurry to get them back. Most shops charge more for need it right now repairs. (I cold galvanize most of my itty bits.)
As to equipment, there is a lot of junk being sold and it's not all from the Far East. Even the big brands have gotten into this game so the name painted on the side of the box can be meaningless. It is far far far cheaper to set up a good gas outfit than it is to get a decent quality TIG or MIG rig. Remember that your gas supplier will determine your hose connections, etc. Gas and bottle rental rates are consistant so talk to everybody and see who is perhaps the friendlist. Tell them you're building an airplane and they might be able to turn you on to some gear appropriate to your task and steer you away from the bad stuff.
I've paid shop fees to shear parts, punch holes, bandsaw, etc. on their equipment. One shop charges me a low flat fee which has been waved because I leave it cleaner than I found it.
Now the secret:
We've sold a LOT of equipment to "new to world of welding" folks for a lot of money and then gone back and sold them a lot more after they learn to weld. Hold off on the gear choice (I still don't like the autodark lenses, haha) until you've taken a course or paid an old timer a few bucks to teach you with his stuff. On the second or third day of learning, take in some of your light and heavy work and seek a demonstration of how to do it properly. Get opinions from as many people smoking metal for a living who are NOT on the internet. Visit some of the "we only sell welding supplies" supply outfits nearby. Every salesperson I ever met was somebody with 10s of thousands of hours experience and on a slow day they'll be happy to increase your brain power. So then when it is time to outfit your own shop not only will you know exactly what YOU want, you'll probably have found some slightly used or amazing quality older rig for as near as being free to make no heavy never mind. I've seen mobile welding rigs complete with thousands of dollars in tools, gear and supplies go for less than the cost of just the truck. And you'll see all kinds of tools and gear you never knew existed that can make your project come together like a song.
I have one friend who learned to weld by watching youtube videos and paid nearly nothing to outfit her shop. Such confidence!


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:44 AM -0700, "Ben Charvet" <bencharvet(at)gmail.com (bencharvet(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ben Charvet

I haven't done a lot of TIG welding, but the process is more similar to
Oxy/Acetylene gas welding than any of the offerings in your course. If
you can make it to Sun-N-Fun or Oshkosh the major manufacturers of TIG
equipment could probably get you started. I taught myself how to gas
weld using the Finch text and my landing gear and motor mount have
lasted for 10 years Smile Gas equipment is a bit cheaper so you might
want to consider that route too.
Ben Charvet
On 1/21/2020 10:54 AM, tsts4 wrote:
Quote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tsts4"

So I start an evening, part-time basic welding course at my local tech college next week. The curriculum is Stick, Flux core and MIG. My question for the experts is, is it possible for me to teach myself TIG, assuming I become competent at the other processes at the end of the course? I've watched a lot of YouTube on TIG and scoured the welding forums but have not been able to draw a conclusion one way or the other.

--------
Todd Stovall
aka "Auburntsts" on EAA and VAF
RV-10 N728TT -- Flying


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494372#494372






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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:08 am    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

While you are at SNF, they have gas welding workshops too.  Stop by the
Woodworking tent, I'll be there all week.

Ben
Quote:

Good suggestion on the airshow TIG courses. We'll be at both SNF (we only live 35 min from Lakeland) and Osh. The workshop schedule for SNF shows 2 TIG workshops daily and my basic welding course finishes up the week prior to SNF so the timing is perfect.

--------
Todd Stovall
aka &quot;Auburntsts&quot; on EAA and VAF
RV-10 N728TT -- Flying


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494376#494376



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