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Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines

 
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JDelamarter(at)lycoming.t
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

To All:

I am new to the Matronics email list and would like to introduce myself. My
name is Jon A. Delamarter. I hold an A&P license and a degree in aircraft
maintenance from Spartan School of Aeronautics (Tulsa, OK). I have been
married for more than my adult life (since 19) and have the world's most
wonderful wife and the 4 most beautiful and intelligent daughters that God
ever created. (My dog's pretty smart too.) I have about 50 hours of dual
in my logbook but have not soloed due to a disagreement between me and Uncle
Sam regarding my medical. As a certified airplane freak and airport bum, I
might just hold some sort of record for "Most Types Flown Before Solo." I
am particularly proud of the fact that I have T-6 aerobatic instruction on
the first page of my logbook! My professional aviation career began upon
graduation from Spartan on December 17, 1999. In the short 6½ years since,
I have enjoyed an unbelievably rewarding life. With the blessings of loving
family support, an excellent education, and an absolute dedication to
excellence, I have experienced career satisfaction and growth that I could
not have imagined. If you love this business, it will be good to you! If
you don't love it, get out. If I have learned one thing thus far, it is
this: It's always about the people! I have no idea how many of you will
read this email, but I want you to know something. You aviation folks are
my family. I am proud and humbled to be part of you.

Having said all that, and at the risk of sounding crassly commercial, I'd
love to tell you folks about what I'm doing now. As of February 1st of this
year, it has been my privilege to serve as manager of Lycoming's brand-new
experimental hot-rod shop, Thunderbolt Engines. As you know, the absence of
Lycoming's direct participation in the past has not prevented the dominance
of our brand in the experimental market. We owe this not only to those
designers who build their aircraft around our engine, but also and perhaps
even more so, to the inherent reliability and simplicity of our engines.
The bottom line is that, although many of you are willing to experiment with
different aircraft designs and construction techniques, few have the desire
to step away from the known quantity of a Lycoming engine.

In recognition of this fact, Lycoming began a journey down a new road last
year with the introduction of the kit program. This program is responsible
for the influx of new experimental Lycoming based engines being sold by 6
shops across the country. With this move, Lycoming formally acknowledged
the credibility of the custom engine for the common man.

On April 5th of this year, at Sun-'n-Fun in Lakeland, FL, Lycoming made
public the next step in its journey by unveiling Thunderbolt Engines.
Thunderbolt Engines exists to provide homebuilders, race pilots, and
competition aerobatic pilots with a factory engineered, factory built,
factory supported, factory guaranteed custom engine. In the brief span of
time since the announcement, we have been pleased to learn that the first
reaction from most of our customers upon learning about Thunderbolt Engines
is shock followed immediately by excitement. The most common comments have
been something like, "I'm so glad you guys are finally doing this. I've
been waiting a long time and really didn't expect it to happen." After
recovering from their initial surprise, many builders have eagerly shared
their ideas and concepts for customizing our engines. There are a
significant number of builders who are willing to pay a fair price for a
factory experimental engine. This core group understands the importance of
supporting the customization process with proper and adequate engineering,
quality, assembly, and testing protocol. Thunderbolt Engines is housed in
the ATC (Advanced Technology Center) here at Lycoming. The ATC is still
under development and will eventually consist of four build cells, static
display areas, an aircraft integration laboratory, a customer/employee
training facility, and offices. Once completed, the ATC will be available
to you for tours and training. We are currently operational and are
delivering engines. The intent is to construct a state-of-the-art facility
that will demonstrate our commitment to CDTA, Customer Driven Technological
Advancement. In plain English, we are creating, through the ATC, a
knowledge pool. We encourage you to challenge us with your requests and
ideas. We are discovering that many of our customers know a lot about our
product. Through our involvement in the kit program, we have developed
relationships with individuals and companies that have successfully and
responsibly modified our engines for many years. Through our customer
satisfaction surveys, we are gaining accurate, real-time Voice of the
Customer (VOC) data. We have gained experience and customer exposure
through our support of Reno racing and competition aerobatics. In addition,
Lycoming has made significant additions to its engineering staff. These
folks come from various backgrounds and bring fresh perspective and skills
to the table. By leveraging the data gathered from all these resources,
(customers, kit shops, customer surveys, racing/aerobatics, engineering,
etc.), we are building the knowledge pool. This data not only accelerates
our development technically, it also allows us to focus on developing those
products that best fulfill the needs of the customer.

The development of a Thunderbolt engine begins and ends with the Voice of
the Customer. Many builders call us requesting pricing for a specific
engine. While we certainly provide that information, we also attempt to
glean as much information as possible regarding specific aircraft
application and desired performance. From that data, we are frequently able
to provide the builder with several options, some of which they may not have
known existed. Through this process, we accomplish two things. First, we
match the builder with a custom solution that best accomplishes their stated
goal. Secondly, and equally important, we demonstrate our commitment to the
customer's best interests, rather than pushing a particular product. Our
customers have expressed a great deal of satisfaction with this process and
have been quick to differentiate us from the competition in this regard.
Thunderbolt Engines are currently segregated into three series: Signature,
Extreme, and Competition. A Thunderbolt Signature Series Engine is
differentiated from a certified, production engine in several ways. Like
all Thunderbolt Engines, Signature Series engines are constructed in
dedicated build cells by two man teams. In addition to being team built,
Signature engines are internally balanced and will be configured to the
customer's exact specifications. Items that may be customized range from
major configuration changes such as crankcase or crankshaft to fuel systems,
ignition systems, sumps, induction components, and turbocharging. Customers
will also choose from appearance options such as engine color(s), chrome,
etc. Billet aluminum components such as the prototype rocker covers
displayed at Sun-'n-Fun are in development but not yet online.
Representative of this series would be the engine built last year for Mike
Melville, the world's first civilian astronaut. This engine was an
O-360-A4M configured for updraft cooling and incorporating an experimental
Ellison fuel system. Mike operates this engine in a Long-EZ. Thunderbolt
Signature Series engines will receive a 2-year warranty. This is a real
warranty with real value.

Thunderbolt Extreme Series engines incorporate all the features of the
Signature Series and continue to the next level in terms of performance
upgrades. These items may consist of mildly increased compression ratio or
boost levels, or other yet to be defined upgrades. Thunderbolt Extreme
Series engines will receive a reduced warranty, due to the expected types of
operational dynamics.

Thunderbolt Competition Series engines incorporate all the features of the
Signature and Extreme Series and continue to the maximum level of
performance. These upgrades may consist of dramatically increased
compression ratio or boost levels, water injection, and/or other yet to be
defined upgrades. Representative of this group would be the engines built
for Jon Sharp's Nemesis NXT and Mike Jones' Glasair III. Also
representative of this group would be the engine we just shipped to Extra
for the new Mike Goulian airplane. This engine is an AEIO-580-L1B5 with
very special cylinders, pistons, and sparkplugs. Once fully broken in, we
are expecting 340-350 hp (at) 2700 RPM and 11:1 compression. Walter Extra
reports unbelievable climb from an extremely smooth-running engine.
Competition Series engines will be limited to highly experienced pilots and
will require a signed agreement from the customer limiting his right to sell
or change ownership of the engine. Any such change would require Lycoming's
approval. The purpose of this constraint is to prevent the sale of a 340hp
AEIO-580 to a 40hr. Cessna driver! These engines are all out performance
machines, have no representation of reliability, and carry no warranty.

Okay, enough for the blurb. Let's get down to brass tacks. At not quite 32
years of age, I am smart enough to know that I'm still wet behind the ears!
I do not pretend to know everything there is to know about aircraft engines.
However, I absolutely believe in Lycoming Engines and stand ready to support
you in any way possible. I am here to serve as the conduit between you, the
builder, and the full support of Lycoming's able staff of engineers,
technicians, and support personnel. I want you to know that I share your
enthusiasm for our sport and that I hope for the opportunity to speak to
each of you. I will be at Arlington, Oshkosh, and Reno. Please drop by or
contact me with your questions and ideas. I will make every attempt to
answer your inquiry personally and in a timely fashion.

Sincerely,

Jon A. Delamarter
Thunderbolt Manager
Lycoming Engines
(570)327-7115


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GrummanDude



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

In a message dated 6/22/06 4:49:15 PM, JDelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com writes:


Quote:
A Thunderbolt Signature Series Engine is
differentiated from a certified, production engine in several ways.  Like
all Thunderbolt Engines, Signature Series engines are constructed in
dedicated build cells by two man teams.  In addition to being team built,
Signature engines are internally balanced and will be configured to the
customer's exact specifications.  Items that may be customized range from
major configuration changes such as crankcase or crankshaft to fuel systems,


Roller Rockers????


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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
Home of Team Grumman
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flyv35b(at)ashcreekwirele
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

No roller rockers are available.  Just the new roller cam followers.
[quote] ---


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JDelamarter(at)lycoming.t
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:38 am    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

Roller cam/lifters are available as standard equipment at no additional
charge. I am unaware of any plans to introduce roller rockers.

Jon A. Delamarter
Thunderbolt Manager
Lycoming Engines


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Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:39 am    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

No, certified engines come outfitted with the accessories that the original OEM requested for the airframe (starter, fuel system, ignition.)  One of the advantages of buying from an engine shop in the field has always been the ability to set the engine up to the specs that you as a builder want.  For example, removing the Kelly starter and replacing it with Skytec or B&C.  Believe me, we’ve got several Kelly starters sitting on the shelf from some of the first IO-390s due to problems (either mechanical or fit related.)
 
Also note that several of the engine shops go to extra lengths to make sure that when you purchase an engine the components are what they should be (like reworking cylinders, especially the guides and crankshaft balancing.)  Some charge an additional fee, and some perform the work as a standard item.   
 
[i]Rhonda Barrett-Bewley[/i]
[i]Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.[/i]
[i]2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.[/i]
[i]Tulsa[/i][i],OK  74115[/i][i][/i]
[i](918) 835-1089 phone[/i]
[i](918) 835-1754 fax[/i]
[i][i]www.barrettprecisionengines.com [/i][/i]


From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mario Nolte
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 3:55 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AW: Engines-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines

 
Aren´t they standard even on the certified engines by now?

 

Kind regards

 

Mario

 
Quote:

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] Im Auftrag von TeamGrumman(at)aol.com
Gesendet: Freitag, 23. Juni 2006 07:06
An: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines

In a message dated 6/22/06 4:49:15 PM, JDelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com writes:




A Thunderbolt Signature Series Engine is
differentiated from a certified, production engine in several ways.  Like
all Thunderbolt Engines, Signature Series engines are constructed in
dedicated build cells by two man teams.  In addition to being team built,
Signature engines are internally balanced and will be configured to the
customer's exact specifications.  Items that may be customized range from
major configuration changes such as crankcase or crankshaft to fuel systems,


Roller Rockers????


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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

Geez,,, Roller rockers are pretty easy to fabricate, test and furnish.. Cheap HP gains from them too.. You would figure a company like Lycoming, with 60+ years of supposable R&D would have addressed that simple thing years ago. Now,,, if they can get their crankshafts from breaking they might go somewhere. You can bet if one does break on this new line of experimental engines the their response will be "_uckoff" ,,,,Their is something wrong with in installation.. They will not stand behind their certified engines.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 "Delamarter, Jon" <JDelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com> wrote:
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Delamarter, Jon" <JDelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com>

Roller cam/lifters are available as standard equipment at no additional
charge.  I am unaware of any plans to introduce roller rockers.  

Jon A. Delamarter
Thunderbolt Manager
Lycoming Engines


 
 
 


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archie97(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:51 am    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

Two companies tried that in aviation, and failed.
There are a series of parameters that do not directly apply to aircraft use,
but for the most part, why re invent the wheel, when the racing industry
has been using a variety of these for about 50 years.
They are available in extruded aluminum, forged aluminum, and stainless,
fully rollerized, or bushed and roller tipped, and in any ratio desired.
(After correcting the ratio on a number of aircraft rockers, it is obvious that
the factory does not pay close attention to this) 
As far as strength, no contest here: Where an aircraft may have open pressure
of approx. 300lbs, we run open pressures of around 1000 lbs.
Another significant advantage to the roller rockers is reduced valve guide wear.
Not sure of HP gains on a slow turning ac engine, but might be interesting to dyno each.
Archie
[quote] ---


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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

Friction is Friction...... but you already knew that Archie... Less friction= more power. I have been into more "certified aircraft" then I care to admit. In every instance I shake my head in amazement at how they get away with such crude technology and machining tolerances. You can bet most of the valve guide failures and premature wear are because of POOR quality control during the machining process. That is exactly why I produce an auto engine conversion for experimental planes using the latest and best parts available. I kinda chuckle at the ad where Thielert announces the "new" technology of roller lifters. Gm's 53 and 71 series Detriot Diesels have had that stuff since the late 1940's. There is a fool born every minute and most will end up buying a Lycoming or Cont thinking it they are on the cutting edge of technology. Thank god for the experimental movement !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do not achive 
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com

-- "Archie" <archie97(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
Two companies tried that in aviation, and failed.
There are a series of parameters that do not directly apply to aircraft use,
but for the most part, why re invent the wheel, when the racing industry
has been using a variety of these for about 50 years.
They are available in extruded aluminum, forged aluminum, and stainless,
fully rollerized, or bushed and roller tipped, and in any ratio desired.
(After correcting the ratio on a number of aircraft rockers, it is obvious that
the factory does not pay close attention to this) 
As far as strength, no contest here: Where an aircraft may have open pressure
of approx. 300lbs, we run open pressures of around 1000 lbs.
Another significant advantage to the roller rockers is reduced valve guide wear.
Not sure of HP gains on a slow turning ac engine, but might be interesting to dyno each.
Archie
[quote] ---


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glcasey(at)adelphia.net
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:01 am    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

From the sound of some of the posts our friends at Lycoming and
Continental haven't been reading the technical literature or have
been asleep for the last 50 years or so. While they could perhaps be
more progressive than they have I'm not so sure that some of the
"easy" fixes make as much sense in aircraft engines as it sounds:

1. Roller-tipped rockers will reduce wear on the valve tip and will
reduce side loading on the valve. that is especially important for
engines with small-diameter stems, high spring loading and short-
radius rockers (such as when increasing the valve lift of an
automotive engine). Aircraft engines have relatively long rockers
and low spring loads, so I don't see any critical need. It would
reduce the wear and increase the life of the rocker arm (which now
usually last over 4,000 hours), but it would introduce other failure
modes. Aircraft engines are designed, as much as possible to have
soft failure modes, such as the wear-out of a component. A roller
tip, because of the higher contact forces, must be hardened and it
and its ancillary components could break, putting hardened steel
shrapnel into the engine. I don't think the increased horsepower
(which would be miniscule) would be worth the risk. The same is true
for roller follower, but these seem to be endorsed by Lycoming so
perhaps the potential failure modes are addressed; I don't know. I
would be reluctant to use needle-bearing rocker pivots for the same
reason.

2. One big advantage of roller followers is that they allow a
concave cam profile to be ground, increasing acceleration rates. If
the spring loads were increased this would have a positive impact on
the design of the cam profile, allowing a shorter overall duration
for a given breathing capability. This would provide measurable
improvements in BSFC, BMEP or both. Does anyone use concave profiles
with the roller followers? I doubt it - it requires much more
expensive cam grinding equipment. Is the power increase worth the
trouble of going to roller followers? One clue would be for someone
that changed to rollers to compare oil temperatures before and
after. Oil temperatures are a function of lots of variables, but any
friction savings that would result in a measurable power increase
would have to also result in substantially less heat going into the
oil. I'd be surprised if the gain were anywhere near 1 horsepower
per cylinder.

3. Possibly the reason Lycoming endorses roller followers is the
reduced probability of galling after extended periods of non-use.
This has been a chronic problem with the Lycoming high-mounted
camshaft and roller followers might be the only answer.

4. Aluminum rockers? Aluminum has a finite fatigue life, unlike
steel, so aluminum can be effectively used in drag engines and other
finite-life engines. I wouldn't use aluminum for this application in
an aircraft engine. This is especially true since the likely failure
mode is a fractured rocker, disabling one cylinder without warning.

4. One limitation to high valve accelerations is the length of the
pushrods and these apparently are small enough in diameter to be
prone to buckling. Very little that can be done without increasing
their diameter.

5. Broken crankshafts? Don't know the root cause, so I can't
comment intelligently. Certainly there isn't enough money in the
aircraft engine business to pay for exotic engineering tools that are
used in the automotive business, and weight sensitivity precludes
burying uncertainties in cast iron (the old saying is that doctors
bury their mistakes in the ground while engineers bury their mistakes
in cast iron). More careful control of process parameters is
probably the crutch that has to be used.

6. I can't comment on "machining tolerance", but aircraft engines
can swallow a lot of garbage. Often the first sign of cam wear is a
rough engine and inspection will show that the cam lobe is gone. For
some time the engine tolerated that much iron and didn't fail.
Fairly large clearances coupled with high-viscosity oil will allow
such things. Do we want to give up damage tolerance for being able
to use smaller crank journals or to increase the loading? Maybe not.

I really like the idea of using a high-tech automotive engine in an
aircraft and and did a lot of analysis. In the end I concluded that
I could get equivalent power and durability and almost equivalent
BSFC, but I couldn't avoid a 50-pound weight penalty. A big-bore air-
cooled direct drive engine is a pretty good match for most aircraft.

Gary Casey

Quote:

.....has been using a variety of these for about 50 years.
They are available in extruded aluminum, forged aluminum, and
stainless,
fully rollerized, or bushed and roller tipped, and in any ratio
desired.
(After correcting the ratio on a number of aircraft rockers, it is
obvious that
the factory does not pay close attention to this)
As far as strength, no contest here: Where an aircraft may have open
pressure
of approx. 300lbs, we run open pressures of around 1000 lbs.
Another significant advantage to the roller rockers is reduced valve
guide wear.
Not sure of HP gains on a slow turning ac engine, but might be
interesting to dyno each.
Archie


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redswing(at)mcn.org
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

Archie,
If you ever do that please let us know.
Thanks,
Red Hamilton
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Reply with quote

Not likely to happen, inasmuch as I have lost interest and sticking
to race only engines. I would be curious as to any measurable
differences on the dyno, however.
I personally have no interest in developing roller rockers for aircraft,
but if so, would go with a stainless version rather than aluminum
for a number of reasons.
Archie
[quote] ---


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