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klehman(at)albedo.net
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 Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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The compass may not help as a tie-breaker if a wing leveller goes wonky.
I picked up a used 28 volt T&B for $20. Had planned to rig up a power
supply but it seems to work fine on 12 volts. I had hoped that someone
would market a cheap solid state T&B or publish some plans for such. Has
anyone played with rate gyros or have a feel for what it would take? An
analog meter display is all I'm after. Yup I've got two T&B's too but
I am willing to play with a simple light alternative if only for an
educational venture. Could such a thing be done easilly?
Ken
glaesers wrote:
| Quote: |
I think you're on the right track. You might want to consider TruTrak's
Pictoral Pilot or ADI Pilot instead of the Digitrack. They give you both an
instrument and AP in one unit, and both are IMHO easier to use than either a
T&B or TC.
You'd have to query Dynon/GRT/TruTrak about their take on failure modes. I
don't think there is enough operational experience with any of these units
to know what failure modes they will present. Murphy's Law hasn't been
repealed, so having to 'arbitrate truth' is always a possibility.
I'm planning on a GRT Sport, 2 axis ADI Pilot, ASI, Altimeter, and compass.
If the Sport and ADI disagree, I figure the Altimeter, ASI and Compass will
help me decide which is correct. Chances of both failing on one flight are
so slim I'm not even bothering with a third unit (same philosophy as a
traditional six-pack). If you stick with the 2.25 T&B, you'll have a tie
breaker.
That's my 2 cents...
Dennis Glaeser
RV7A - Fuselage
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oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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Good Afternoon Ken,
You will want to be a bit careful when using the
twenty-eight volt unit at a lower voltage. The
sensitivity is drastically reduced. One needle width
will result in a much higher rate of turn than the
standard three degrees per second.
Incidentally, is the one you purchased equipped with a
single dog house in the center or is there an
additional doghouse on each side of the one in the
center?
When using the ones with a single doghouse in the
center, the rate of turn should be three degrees per
second when the moving needle is just barely touching
the side of the single dog house. That was referred to
as a one needle width turn. The more modern T&Bs were
equipped with an additional dog house off to each side
of the center doghouse. Lining up the needle with
either side dog house should provide a standard rated
turn.
For What It Is Worth, back in the days when there was
a lot of uncontrolled airspace available in the good
old USA, we used twenty-eight volt T&Bs in our
gliders.
By powering them with twelve volts, or a little less,
the sensitivity was reduced sufficiently such that we
could use the T&B to thermal in cloud.
We would get below a building cumulonimbus, get the
core centered, then continue circling as we enjoyed
the high speed lift up to eighteen or twenty thousand
feet. At that point, we would center the needle and
shoot out the side of the cloud.. What a blast.
I think a solid state T&B would be great, though the
presentation doesn't have to be in the same form as
the T&B. Personally, I think anything that makes your
mind think of turn would do the job. It is my belief
that trying to get the wings level is what is
confusing folks.
There is no doubt that when the wings are level and
the ball is in the middle, you are not likely to be
turning, but it is very hard to believe that little
wings level instrument when your mind tells you it is
all wrong.
It is my totally unproven hypothesis that our minds
are better able to deal with stopping the turn than
with putting the wing where it is telling us it does
not belong.
That is true regardless of which way we think is up.
That is why I believe the T&B to be an advantage over
the TC. There is absolutely no doubt that an
artificial horizon is easier to use than either a TC
or a T&B. The problem is that they do tumble. It has
also not yet been determined just how well the glass
panel units could be used for unusual attitude
recovery. When you are in a spin, or even a grave yard
spiral, it gets very confusing trying to recover using
an artificial horizon, mechanical or electronic.
Stopping the turn is most likely to be the action that
will initiate recovery.
A turn can be stopped by using a TC, but not as
positively. The TC shows both roll and yaw. That makes
it difficult to use in a spin recovery.
If you are going to design a new instrument that will
tell us when we are turning, why don't you make it
show a picture of an airplane as if you were looking
down on the top of that airplane?
If our airplane is flying straight ahead, the little
airplane on instrument should have it's nose pointed
at the top of the instrument. If our airplane is
turning, the little airplane in the instrument should
show the nose over toward the side toward which we are
turning.
Once again, it is my totally unproven thought that our
mind will accept that sort of an indication when it
will fight us as to whether or not the wings are
level.
We didn't start to have all of these horrible crashes
following a primary instrument failure before the TC
came on the scene. It may have just been a
coincidence, but I think the emphasis on keeping the
wings level rather than stopping the turn is what
precipitated all of the problems.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Do Not Archive
--- Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
<klehman(at)albedo.net>
The compass may not help as a tie-breaker if a wing
leveller goes wonky.
I picked up a used 28 volt T&B for $20. Had planned
to rig up a power
supply but it seems to work fine on 12 volts. I had
hoped that someone
would market a cheap solid state T&B or publish some
plans for such. Has
anyone played with rate gyros or have a feel for
what it would take? An
analog meter display is all I'm after. Yup I've
got two T&B's too but
I am willing to play with a simple light alternative
if only for an
educational venture. Could such a thing be done
easilly?
Ken
glaesers wrote:
>
<glaesers(at)wideopenwest.com>
>
>I think you're on the right track. You might want
to consider TruTrak's
>Pictoral Pilot or ADI Pilot instead of the
Digitrack. They give you both an
>instrument and AP in one unit, and both are IMHO
easier to use than either a
>T&B or TC.
>
>You'd have to query Dynon/GRT/TruTrak about their
take on failure modes. I
>don't think there is enough operational experience
with any of these units
>to know what failure modes they will present.
Murphy's Law hasn't been
>repealed, so having to 'arbitrate truth' is always
a possibility.
>
>I'm planning on a GRT Sport, 2 axis ADI Pilot, ASI,
Altimeter, and compass.
>If the Sport and ADI disagree, I figure the
Altimeter, ASI and Compass will
>help me decide which is correct. Chances of both
failing on one flight are
>so slim I'm not even bothering with a third unit
(same philosophy as a
>traditional six-pack). If you stick with the 2.25
T&B, you'll have a tie
>breaker.
>
>That's my 2 cents...
>
>Dennis Glaeser
>RV7A - Fuselage
>
>
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Admin.
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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On Jun 25, 2006, at 5:19 PM, Ken wrote:
| Quote: |
The compass may not help as a tie-breaker if a wing leveller goes
wonky. I picked up a used 28 volt T&B for $20. Had planned to rig
up a power supply but it seems to work fine on 12 volts. I had
hoped that someone would market a cheap solid state T&B or publish
some plans for such. Has anyone played with rate gyros or have a
feel for what it would take?
|
The Gyro House in Auburn, CA, built one. I don't know if they are
still selling it.
| Quote: | An analog meter display is all I'm after. Yup I've got two T&B's
too but I am willing to play with a simple light alternative if
only for an educational venture. Could such a thing be done easilly?
|
Check into the cheap Murata gyros they use to stabilize RC model
helicopters.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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On Jun 25, 2006, at 6:26 PM, OldBob Siegfried wrote:
| Quote: | There is no doubt that when the wings are level and
the ball is in the middle, you are not likely to be
turning,
|
You can remove the phrase "likely to be" from the previous sentence.
| Quote: | but it is very hard to believe that little
wings level instrument when your mind tells you it is
all wrong.
|
That is one of the things that you have to learn to deal with when
flying on instruments. You inner-ear isn't suitable.
| Quote: |
It is my totally unproven hypothesis that our minds
are better able to deal with stopping the turn than
with putting the wing where it is telling us it does
not belong.
|
The thinking part of the brain has to be able to override the feeling
part of the brain if you want to stay alive. You just have to do it.
But you do have a good point. When all else fails set the trim to
something rational, set the throttle according to the airspeed trend,
let go of the yoke, and stop the turn with the rudder. It works.
| Quote: | That is true regardless of which way we think is up.
That is why I believe the T&B to be an advantage over
the TC. There is absolutely no doubt that an
artificial horizon is easier to use than either a TC
or a T&B. The problem is that they do tumble.
|
Not all tumble. A 360 degree free vertical gyro cannot tumble as
there are no stops. That is what is in virtually every military
aircraft. I used the one in my CJ6 for setting my lines during
aerobatics because I didn't have guide lines on the canopy or a wire
frame on the wing time. It never tumbled, even when doing snaps or
hammerheads. The only problem is if the gyro has some sort of
erection mechanism that causes it to drift when you are not flying
straight and level.
| Quote: | It has
also not yet been determined just how well the glass
panel units could be used for unusual attitude
recovery. When you are in a spin, or even a grave yard
spiral, it gets very confusing trying to recover using
an artificial horizon, mechanical or electronic.
Stopping the turn is most likely to be the action that
will initiate recovery.
|
Fine. I have several ways to tell I am not turning. If the wings are
level I cannot be turning. If the heading indicator isn't changing I
am not turning. If the T&B has the needle in the center I am not
turning. I have to compare these things to make sure one of them
isn't lying to me.
(BTW, I agree with you that the T&B is the simplest and most reliable
gyro instrument in the panel and least likely to lie to you.)
| Quote: |
A turn can be stopped by using a TC, but not as
positively. The TC shows both roll and yaw. That makes
it difficult to use in a spin recovery.
|
I agree.
| Quote: |
If you are going to design a new instrument that will
tell us when we are turning, why don't you make it
show a picture of an airplane as if you were looking
down on the top of that airplane?
|
You mean like a heading indicator? That is precisely what it shows.
| Quote: |
If our airplane is flying straight ahead, the little
airplane on instrument should have it's nose pointed
at the top of the instrument. If our airplane is
turning, the little airplane in the instrument should
show the nose over toward the side toward which we are
turning.
|
No, it should show the ground turning under us as we are our own
frame of reference. The nose of the airplane is always in front of
me. It never changes. Only the earth's relationship to me changes.
You need that egocentric viewpoint in order to hack seriously unusual
attitudes.
Another way of looking at it is that, if you normally fly aerobatics,
nothing is an unusual attitude. You just want to change from the
attitude you are in to another attitude, one that does not have your
velocity vector intersecting the plane of the earth.
| Quote: |
Once again, it is my totally unproven thought that our
mind will accept that sort of an indication when it
will fight us as to whether or not the wings are
level.
|
When one is suffering from vertigo one's vestibular sense is lying to
them. At that point it doesn't matter what instruments you have, you
have to be able to interpret what they are ALL saying in order to
deduce the proper response. Wings level, nose up or down, rate of
turn, airspeed trend, altitude trend, and heading are all inputs to
the thinking part of the brain which then has to generate appropriate
control inputs regardless of what the vestibular sense says is going
on. Instrument failure -- any instrument failure -- just compounds
the problem. It is really hard to relax and say, "gee, which of these
is making sense," when you think you are going to die.
| Quote: | We didn't start to have all of these horrible crashes
following a primary instrument failure before the TC
came on the scene. It may have just been a
coincidence, but I think the emphasis on keeping the
wings level rather than stopping the turn is what
precipitated all of the problems.
|
Hmm, maybe. The FAA doesn't want us teaching spins anymore either (I
still do). I make my primary students do their hood work at night
when there are no other visual clues. (I am SOOO mean they tell me.)
I think that it is a lack of practice in recognizing and switching to
partial panel flight. It is a lack of understanding about how the
instruments work and how they fail. Pilots used to be able to
describe all the aircraft's systems and their failure modes. Now it
is hard to find a pilot who can describe the basic fuel or electrical
system in a C-150. Lots of things have changed.
And I suspect we are actually saying many of the same things --
agreeing violently as it were.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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In a message dated 6/25/2006 7:21:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, brian-yak(at)lloyd.com writes:
| Quote: | You mean like a heading indicator? That is precisely what it shows.
|
Good Evening Brian,
No, there would be no heading information at all. It would be strictly a yaw instrument, just like a T&B, but with a presentation that I hope would be a little more intuitive to a low time aviator.
As I said before, I have no way of testing it out and I do not have the technical skills to make a prototype to find out if I am all wet or not.
There are a few T&Bs that have the needle hinged in the center of the instrument face. If you were to make a full circle to replace the turn needle and paint a picture of the airplane on that circle, you would have the presentation I am thinking of.
Remember, what I want for the instrument is a picture of the top of the airplane as if we were looking down on it from above, not a head on or tail view like a horizon.
If the aircraft we were flying was not yawing, the little airplane would be flying straight toward the top of the instrument. (Not moving, but pointing that way). If a yaw or turn developed, it would show the airplane pointing to the left or right just as does a turn needle.
For the test version, I would eliminate the inclinometer from the instrument and mount one just below the new presentation. If my idea showed merit, it could be built to include the inclinometer just as is the TC and the T&B.
I think it may be a little easier to learn to use than is the T&B, yet not as confusing as the TC.
I've been wrong many times before. It would be nothing new if I am wrong on this one!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
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brian
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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On Jun 25, 2006, at 9:23 PM, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | In a message dated 6/25/2006 7:21:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, brian-yak(at)lloyd.com (brian-yak(at)lloyd.com) writes:
| Quote: | You mean like a heading indicator? That is precisely what it shows.
|
Good Evening Brian,
No, there would be no heading information at all. It would be strictly a yaw instrument, just like a T&B, but with a presentation that I hope would be a little more intuitive to a low time aviator.
As I said before, I have no way of testing it out and I do not have the technical skills to make a prototype to find out if I am all wet or not.
|
And the HI wouldn't work anyway as it *WILL* tumble. I am forever tumbling my heading gyro even tho' the AI works just peachy.
| Quote: |
There are a few T&Bs that have the needle hinged in the center of the instrument face. If you were to make a full circle to replace the turn needle and paint a picture of the airplane on that circle, you would have the presentation I am thinking of.
Remember, what I want for the instrument is a picture of the top of the airplane as if we were looking down on it from above, not a head on or tail view like a horizon.
|
You know, you can train your mind to accept any input. For instance, the Russian and Chinese AIs are upside-down in that they show pitch reversed from what we expect. These AIs have the blue on the bottom and brown on top. The horizon line goes up when you climb putting the aircraft symbol in the blue and vice-versa. When flying IFR with these instruments it takes me about 5 minutes to stop reacting backwards in pitch. Still, my mind adapts pretty quickly and I am then ready to go fly an ILS with it. It is from this that I don't worry about the exact presentation as I know *I* can adapt to it with training.
| Quote: | If the aircraft we were flying was not yawing, the little airplane would be flying straight toward the top of the instrument. (Not moving, but pointing that way). If a yaw or turn developed, it would show the airplane pointing to the left or right just as does a turn needle.
|
Well, the needle probably works just as well.
Something like a HITS display would probably work best.
| Quote: |
For the test version, I would eliminate the inclinometer from the instrument and mount one just below the new presentation. If my idea showed merit, it could be built to include the inclinometer just as is the TC and the T&B.
I think it may be a little easier to learn to use than is the T&B, yet not as confusing as the TC.
I've been wrong many times before. It would be nothing new if I am wrong on this one!
|
I see where you are going but I guess that, for me, I am not sure it would be any better than the T&B. I do agree that the roll sensitivity of the TC can be annoying but it does give quicker feedback that you are departing from wings-level. OTOH the T&B is not so twitchy.
You know what would make a lot of sense? Go do some spiral-dive and spin recovery under the hood using the T&B and then the TC to see if one is appreciably easier. Real live test data is probably a lot more useful than endless conjecture. I know I can recover from a spin using the T&B but have never tried using a TC. Hmm, maybe I will go out and do that.
| Quote: |
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
|
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery |
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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: Glass Panel Layout and homemade rate gyro T&B |
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Bob et al,
You might take a look at the pictorial turn & bank here:
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
It’s sorta like a turn & bank and a turn co-ord together only the horizon doesn’t act backwards to what the horizon does, and all based on an electronic gyro. You can get it combined with a one or two axis AP if you want. See:
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsproducts.html
I haven’t flown one and so can’t comment on the usability compared to iron turn & bank.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
--
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