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Landings

 
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Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:44 am    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote


Rich, I totally agree - I have recently started flying my RV8 and previously
spent my time in an S1S in which although the vision is far less, holds and
flares beautifully.
I can only describe the RV8 landings as being without "feel", and basically
disappointing so far.
It is good to hear an honest opinion of your experiences, far too often the
lists are not very forthcoming on the shortfalls of what is otherwise a
great little aircraft.
Rgds, Nic
Quote:

I have 125 hours in my RV-8 and my experience is that it is somewhat
difficult to make consistently good landings. Now, to avoid, all the name
calling this is only my experience and I may not be the best pilot on the
net and I'm an old guy (60). I have about 500 hours in Cessna 120,140 and
170's and 300 in a Christen Eagle and before that I was a Navy jet guy. I
make full stall landings all the time because I want to be slower, rather
than faster and avoid the transition to tail down. Again just my opinion.
The RV-8 may have a little bit of blocking the tail at slow speeds and
full

Quote:
flaps, don't know. Try, watching RV's land and it seems that the "8"
doesn't make as smooth a landing as the other tail dragging RV's. Could
be

Quote:
the gear design or CG or what ever, but if you watch a 100 RV landings
that

Quote:
seems to be the case. They are not unsafe landing, just not as smooth. I
have tried less flaps, more power, no power it is just a little harder to
make grease them-on-landings all the time. I think that in the Christen
Eagle it was easier to make consistent good landings and you couldn't see
the runway in it. It frustrates the heck out of me not to be able to make
good landings all the time. Maybe more time or someone else will have the
magic cure. But, if I were you, I'd do what ever kind of landing you are
the most comfortable with......they all work.
Rich Crosley
RV-8 N948RC


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cajole76(at)ispwest.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:58 am    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote


Nic,
Maybe the answer to getting that "feel" is vortex generators. There
has been some discussion in the past about reduced stall speeds and
improved stability, but it would be interesting to find out if they
improve the feel in the flare. Anyone have first hand experience to
share?
Joel Harding
On Jan 6, 2006, at 6:43 AM, Nic wrote:
Rich, I totally agree - I have recently started flying my RV8 and
previously
spent my time in an S1S in which although the vision is far less,
holds and
flares beautifully.
I can only describe the RV8 landings as being without "feel", and
basically
disappointing so far.
It is good to hear an honest opinion of your experiences, far too
often the
lists are not very forthcoming on the shortfalls of what is
otherwise a
great little aircraft.
Rgds, Nic
>
> I have 125 hours in my RV-8 and my experience is that it is somewhat
> difficult to make consistently good landings. Now, to avoid, all
> the name
> calling this is only my experience and I may not be the best pilot
> on the
> net and I'm an old guy (60). I have about 500 hours in Cessna
> 120,140 and
> 170's and 300 in a Christen Eagle and before that I was a Navy jet
> guy. I
> make full stall landings all the time because I want to be slower,
> rather
> than faster and avoid the transition to tail down. Again just my
> opinion.
> The RV-8 may have a little bit of blocking the tail at slow speeds
> and
full
> flaps, don't know. Try, watching RV's land and it seems that the "8"
> doesn't make as smooth a landing as the other tail dragging RV's.
> Could
be
> the gear design or CG or what ever, but if you watch a 100 RV
> landings
that
> seems to be the case. They are not unsafe landing, just not as
> smooth. I
> have tried less flaps, more power, no power it is just a little
> harder to
> make grease them-on-landings all the time. I think that in the
> Christen
> Eagle it was easier to make consistent good landings and you
> couldn't see
> the runway in it. It frustrates the heck out of me not to be able
> to make
> good landings all the time. Maybe more time or someone else will
> have the
> magic cure. But, if I were you, I'd do what ever kind of landing
> you are
> the most comfortable with......they all work.
>
> Rich Crosley
> RV-8 N948RC


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cajole76(at)ispwest.com
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote


Nic,
Take a look at this web site. Go to the last item on the page.
There is a picture of a strake, along with some test information. It
sounds like it might improve the low speed feel.
Joel Harding
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8//MikeRobbins.htm
On Jan 6, 2006, at 6:43 AM, Nic wrote:
Rich, I totally agree - I have recently started flying my RV8 and
previously
spent my time in an S1S in which although the vision is far less,
holds and
flares beautifully.
I can only describe the RV8 landings as being without "feel", and
basically
disappointing so far.
It is good to hear an honest opinion of your experiences, far too
often the
lists are not very forthcoming on the shortfalls of what is
otherwise a
great little aircraft.
Rgds, Nic


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low pass



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Houston

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote


Regarding the RV-8 handling, I guess I have to chime in. Mine's coming up
on 6 years old with almost 800 hours - all mine. This plane is a gift from
Heaven as far as I'm concerned. Van is a saint for selling these things at
half what he could get for them.
Guess I might be jaded or biased, but this is one honest, responsive plane.
By far the best I've flown of it's type (single recip engine sport-acro),
and I've flown a few - maybe 35-40 models.
Landing is very straight forward and honest. Yes, it runs out of elevator
if too slow and fwd cg. Even on short strips, I keep the speed up and bleed
energy only when near three-pt touchdown - gives no problems. Takes
practice to do this with a steep decent over an obstacle. The first 4 years
of my RV's life were spent at an 1800-2000' grass strip. Lately, 95% of my
landings are on 3,500+ foot concrete and asphalt where I use a fairly high
nose attitude wheel landing technique (same as used on the grass actually).
I find the spring steel gear no problem. The other RV's are spongier with
their tubular type gear (where I have 60-70 hrs). But the -8 is not a
problem once you've become accustomed to the very minor difference.
As for low speed handling, it's not a Cub, but darn close - and I used to
own one of those. I can hang in the air with the nose at about 30-deg up,
full flaps and fly all day with full confidence. Wouldn't do it below 800
ft or so, but still very predictable and controllable.
The shudder that you get just before stall is a little bit unnerving or just
annoying. But really, I see it as a last line of defense for someone so
totally out of it they allow an unexpected stall. But uncoordinated, it
will snap. Not violently or erratically (depending on how straight the
plane is), just enough to give a good spin entry or low speed snap roll.
I see someone below saying the -8 landing are without feel and
disappointing. Well, just don't see that. Have no idea what this would be
compared to, but just don't see this at all. The looks take a few minutes
to grow on you compared to a -3 or -4 - the most attrative RV's IMO. But
it's a close second, especially flying.
The plane will sink fast when slow. That's just the price to pay for the
low aspect wing. But it's still very managable. Just keep some energy when
landing, and DO NOT "over-pull" the stick to flare. Might get an
accelerated stall at 4-5' AGL. Not good. Did it once. Fortunately,
nothing broke.
Last, the rudder/brake pedals need modification. Some use the lower pedal
extension. I came up with something much more simple and I believe more
effective. I cut two sections of 1/4" steel rod, drilled the respective
sides of the pedal and lower assy. Inserted the rod and secured with set
screw locking collars and Loctite. Has worked great for the last 400-500
hrs.
Be sure to tighten the gear attach bolts after the first 50-hrs or so.
Feel free to write me directly if you have more questions.
Bryan Jones, CFII, MEI, RV-8 transition training (retired!)
www.LoneStarSquadron.com
Houston, Texas
Quote:
From: Joel Harding <cajole76(at)ispwest.com>
Reply-To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Landings Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:34:45 -0700
Nic,
Take a look at this web site. Go to the last item on the page.
There is a picture of a strake, along with some test information. It
sounds like it might improve the low speed feel.
Joel Harding
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8//MikeRobbins.htm
On Jan 6, 2006, at 6:43 AM, Nic wrote:
> Rich, I totally agree - I have recently started flying my RV8 and
> previously
> spent my time in an S1S in which although the vision is far less,
> holds and
> flares beautifully.
>
> I can only describe the RV8 landings as being without "feel", and
> basically
> disappointing so far.
>
> It is good to hear an honest opinion of your experiences, far too
> often the
> lists are not very forthcoming on the shortfalls of what is
> otherwise a
> great little aircraft.
>
> Rgds, Nic
>


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Houston
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Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:14 am    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote

Bryan, Thanks for your feedback on the RV8 handling. I have had several
emails from RV8'ers that have had the same experience as myself, namely of
disappointing handling in takeoff and particularly landing regimes.

I think the issue is mainly one of "expectations" and I had assumed that the
RV grin was one derived from excellent light handling, rather than just
performance. Speaking to a number of pilots that have come to RV8's from
Pitt's or other similar aircraft, they too have found that the 8 is heavy
and not very responsive in certain regimes. Yes, it feels sporty at high
speeds - but that is to be expected.

Much of the discussion on the RV8 forums is naturally about building rather
than flying and it has been good recently to hear some honest opinions on
the RV8 handling, (even if they are often off-line).

Yes, the aircraft is pretty benign and can be landed in a three hundred
yards, and yes, it can be flown as a stable platform at low speeds with the
flaps down ...... but in my honest opinion is that it lacks fine and
detailed feedback that defines a truly great handling airplane.

The ergonomics of the seating and stick position are not ideal either and I
will be thinking of ways to enhance the current arrangements in my own RV8.
(I have heard that Jon J's seats are an improvement in the RV4).

As suggested I think that it really depends on your previous experience as
to whether the handling has the "feel" or not. Overall I am still generally
happy with my new 8, but will Now probably keep my Pitts S1 to keep in
touch.

Rgds, Nic

Quote:
I see someone below saying the -8 landing are without feel and
disappointing. Well, just don't see that. Have no idea what this would
be

Quote:
compared to, but just don't see this at all.


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chasm711(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote

Nic

You seem to imply that the "RV grin" is only acquired from performance and
not handling and that the RV 8 delivers "disappointing" take off and landing
and landing characteristics. If that is your experience that is certainly
valid for you but in no way mirrors the experience of all others. If you
are comparing an RV to a Pitts its a bit of an apples and oranges thing. I
challenge you to put spades on your ailerons, VGs on your stabilizer and
bias your CG aft and then comment on the comparison. You have much more
experience than many builders and are aware that a short coupled Pitts will
be lighter and more responsive in pitch and roll than just about anything
else. When my RV 8 is full of fuel with just me in it and that heavy angle
valve engine up front it gets nose heavy when landing (slow) but at the end
of a cross country leg with low fuel and my wife in the back seat its very
light in pitch. The point is that your Pitts is optimized for a fairly
narrow flight and loading regime and an RV is capable of a much broader
envelope. My experience has been that the RV series is delightful and
responsive to fly in all regimes. Now tell me again how that Pitts has
better takeoff characteristics Smile

Paul Schattauer
RV8 N808 PS

I wheel land on pavement when the CG is forward and 3 point when aft
I always 3 point on grass
The tall pilot option (I am 5'11") and a slightly bent (cut and welded)
stick solved the cockpit ergonomics for me

Quote:
From: "Nic" <Nic(at)skyhi.flyer.co.uk>
Reply-To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com
To: <rv8-list(at)matronics.com>
CC: <rv_8pilot(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Landings
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:13:27 -0000



Bryan, Thanks for your feedback on the RV8 handling. I have had several
emails from RV8'ers that have had the same experience as myself, namely of
disappointing handling in takeoff and particularly landing regimes.

I think the issue is mainly one of "expectations" and I had assumed that
the
RV grin was one derived from excellent light handling, rather than just
performance. Speaking to a number of pilots that have come to RV8's from
Pitt's or other similar aircraft, they too have found that the 8 is heavy
and not very responsive in certain regimes. Yes, it feels sporty at high
speeds - but that is to be expected.

Much of the discussion on the RV8 forums is naturally about building rather
than flying and it has been good recently to hear some honest opinions on
the RV8 handling, (even if they are often off-line).

Yes, the aircraft is pretty benign and can be landed in a three hundred
yards, and yes, it can be flown as a stable platform at low speeds with the
flaps down ...... but in my honest opinion is that it lacks fine and
detailed feedback that defines a truly great handling airplane.

The ergonomics of the seating and stick position are not ideal either and I
will be thinking of ways to enhance the current arrangements in my own RV8.
(I have heard that Jon J's seats are an improvement in the RV4).

As suggested I think that it really depends on your previous experience as
to whether the handling has the "feel" or not. Overall I am still generally
happy with my new 8, but will Now probably keep my Pitts S1 to keep in
touch.

Rgds, Nic

> I see someone below saying the -8 landing are without feel and
> disappointing. Well, just don't see that. Have no idea what this would
be
> compared to, but just don't see this at all.




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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Landings Reply with quote

Quote:
The ergonomics of the seating and stick position are not ideal either and I
will be thinking of ways to enhance the current arrangements in my own RV8.
(I have heard that Jon J's seats are an improvement in the RV4).

Nik,

If you (or anyone else) is interested in a set of Jon Johanson seats,
I've got a set for sale.

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive


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Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
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