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Classic stall characteristics

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mz(at)cariama.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.



Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of course!).



Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? 

And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just every now and again?



Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one?



Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!



Marcel



(PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do )

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

 	  Quote: 	
		   Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa

 owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really

 nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is

 mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to

 impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical

 (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of

 course!).


	


The classic has less wash-out I believe. So the wings stall more abruptly.



-- 

Frans

wooburnaviation(at)google
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

I had a Classic Europa that was converted to a Trike.  It handled well, and stalled straight ahead - provided the ball was in the middle.  I got a bit lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I had a wing drop (about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage of a spin.

   

 Standard recovery worked well,( as a reminder:- stick forward to break the stall, smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft. and the aircraft recovered immaculatly.  Please also remember the "stall speed" is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed.  Wings actually stall due to the angle of attack !  OK review over - for which I appologise.

   

 In short the stall/ spin is pretty benign, with no nasty habits, HOWEVER, as you point out these are hombuilt aircraft, and vary greatly from model to model.  The only way to be sure is to test fly it ( with plenty of altitude, and a suitably experienced pilot).

   

 BTW what is the registration of the aircraft ur looking at, and what's your local ?

  

 Dave

 2008/9/5 zwakie <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)>

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)>

 

As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.



Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of course!).

 

Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling?

 And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just every now and again?



Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one?

 

Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!



Marcel



(PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do )

  [quote][b]

sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

Also the XS (with wash-out, as already pointed out) can have sudden wing 

drop at stall entry if you are flying alone - mine does.  Probably the 

slight left aileron down/right aileron up that is necessary to keep wings 

level with off-centre crew weight will create different angles of attack at 

the outer part of the two wings' span, causing the left wing to stall first 

and drop.  When flying with a passenger, however, the stall of my XS is very 

benign (almost difficult to enter stall in clean configuration).  Recovery 

is quick and undramatic in either case, nose down and right rudder 

immediately stops the wing drop and level the wings.



Svein

LN-SKJ

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

Marcel

the stall is usually more sudden with the flaps down. Not usually a 

problem clean, in my experience. The thing that makes it vicious is if 

the stall starts at the trailing edge so that the whole wing "unzips" 

suddenly. The cure is to make the stall start at the leading edge and 

this is what stall strips do. t

On three Classics that I have helped with we spent a lot of time 

profiling the leading edge according to computer generated templates. 

All three aircraft have relatively benign stall characteristics, they 

also seem quite fast compared to others.

Graham

 	  Quote: 	
		   Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of course!).



 Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!



 Marcel

wooburnaviation(at)google
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

Just to be clear, I most certainly was impling the use of ailierons to level the wing, BUT that is after the nose has been lowered, and full power smoothly applied, flying speed regained.  That is the  incipient spin recovery technique.  It is deemed safer that picking up the wing with rudder, as that is considered likely to spin you in the opposite direction !  Please, if you have any doubts about low speed handling, book a session with a PFA coach or a Flying Instructor experienced in homebuilts.

   

 Happy Landings

 Dave



 

 On 05/09/2008, Carl Pattinson <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk (carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk (carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk)>

 

I wouldnt describe the Classic stall as nasty.



If the ball is level, flaps retracted it is unlikely ther will be a wing drop and simply lowering the nose is enough to recover. If the wing drops use rudder (not aileron) to correct the incipient spin.

 

Elsewhere somebody said level the wings - this implies using aileron which can make the spin worse.



With flaps down many classics will drop a wing but that is probably down to the alignment of the flaps, not the difference in the wings.

 

Eliminating the wing drop is relatively easy -  fit stall strips to make both wings stall simultaneously.



If you are worried about the stall characteristics of the Classic get a ride in one and check it out for yourself. It really is a non event.

 

---

mz(at)cariama.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

Graham and all,



Speeds, AOA, wash-outs and recovery technique for incipient spins are all clear, I consider those things essential knowledge to everyone acting as P1. Nonetheless thanks for reminding me and possibly others.



I do not worry at all about stalling or incipient spins at safe altitudes, but I would not be happy flying an aircraft that has an 'strong wish' to enter stalls/spins while flying at lower-than-cruise speeds, flaps selected and possibly a slightly high AOA in a not truly coordinated turn. My pattern-flying tends to have small deviations in these things, after all I am not a highly sensitive, nanoseconds-responsive 3-axis AP . This probably to more or lesser degree applies to all of us (not implying sloppy flying by anyone here, so don't slap me!  ). 



Without ever having flown such an aircraft, I guess that turning final is where you really have to be on high-alert with a plane like that, because that's when these elements are easiest aligned for entering a stall/spin that most likely is going to be non-recoverable.



With the above in mind, I want to make sure that the characteristics are within MY PERSONAL limits. 



It goes without saying that doing stalls in different configs will be an important part of test-flying the plane. I was wondering if there are other ways you can tell if a plan has a tendency to violently drop a wing. 



Hence my question that actually has not been answered: is there any way you can tell from physically inspecting a Classic Europa that it might have a tendency to violently drop a wing?

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

FWIW during my flight training a portion of it was done in two different

Piper Tomahawk's

they both flew nicely, but one, in the stall if you held off the stall long

enough,

had tendancy to almost go inverted, this was with wings level according to

the ball, it always

broke left, even when dual. So as others have suggested IMHO the only way to

know is to fly it and try it for yourself.



craig



--

mz(at)cariama.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

[quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]There seems to be an assumption...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]

Negative, just trying to find out validaty of the things I've been told. I really appreciate your input, together with

[quote:cf61ea0bc1="raggi6771"]...in two different Piper Tomahawk's...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]

this places my concerns in perspective for me! I now understand that I can forget about measuring up or doing physical checks in an attempt to predict wing-drop tendency in stalls.



[quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]I had the same concerns as you do till my instructor made do this[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]

Good to hear that I'm not the first one with these thoughts (not real concerns in my case though), and that you overcame them 



In conclusion: I will not be too worried about this, unless extensive stall-testing proofs differently.

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

As Carl has said many, if not most, Europas have a 1 degree error in the

turn ball.  This is because the bottom edge of the panel is at that angle to

the axis of the aircraft.  Europa designed it that way but forgot to explain

in the build manual.  Most people, me included, only noticed when the

aircraft had flown.



My aircraft (and G-IRON) are both XSs and have very benign stall

characteristics both straight and turning.  This was established with a lot

of testing needed for the new High top (Mod 64b).  If anything G-IRON would

drop the port wing slightly.  Initially neither aircraft needed or had stall

strips fitted.



During the testing we found that the aircraft are so well behaved it was

very difficult to know exactly when they stalled, they just developed a high

sink rate.  David Scouler, who did the testing, pointed out that stall

strips put the disturbed airflow over the tail plane making it far easier to

"feel" the stall.  So we tried it and it works well to indicate that the

stall is fully developed.



So do not assume that the presence of stall strips indicate that the

aircraft has bad habits.



Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours

Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)

e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk   

   or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

wooburnaviation(at)google
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

Just for clarity,

  

 In spite of my posts in this thred, (all of which I stand by), the classic Europa is, in my opinion a safe, sweet handling aircraft.  Provided the aircraft has been set up properly with the stall strips installed as per the manual, you would have to be comatose not to recognise an oncoming stall/spin scenario in it.  I flew over 400hrs in one without having any issues at all re the handling of the aircraft.  

   

 You'll love it I'm sure !

  

 Dave



 

 On 06/09/2008, zwakie <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)> wrote: [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)>

 

[quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]There seems to be an assumption...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]

Negative, just trying to find out validaty of the things I've been told. I really appreciate your input, together with

 [quote:cf61ea0bc1="raggi6771"]...in two different Piper Tomahawk's...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]

this places my concerns in perspective for me! I now understand that I can forget about measuring up or doing physical checks in an attempt to predict wing-drop tendency in stalls.

 

[quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]I had the same concerns as you do till my instructor made do this[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]

Good to hear that I'm not the first one with these thoughts (not real concerns in my case though), and that you overcame them 

 

In conclusion: I will not be too worried about this, unless extensive stall-testing proofs differently.

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org



  [quote][b]

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Classic stall characteristics

[quote:27bb034c16="g-iani"]



This was established with a lot

of testing needed for the new High top (Mod 64b).[/quote:27bb034c16]



What is the effect of this hi top mod on max speed and cruise speed?



Frans

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

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