Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Europa-list: fitting gascolator

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


William wrote:=E2=80=9D I was going to fit a mini Andair a couple of years ago, when they were all
the rage, but when I talked to Nev, he persuaded me not to bother because he
considered the twin filters was a better system, apart from the water
aspect=E2=80=9D.
I am surprised to read this while Europas keep force-landing or crashing due to fuel filter contamination (read the article on the forced landing of OY-ODA in Europa Flyer # 46)
A fuel filter should have at least:
- a screen area large enough for the fuel flow.
- a drain valve for draining the contaminants (water and solid stuff) before each day of flight.
The filters supplied by Europa Aircraft have none of those characteristics and are therefore potentially dangerous. This is especially true as most of us are using Mogas which is more likely to be contaminated, even when using a filtering funnel at every fill up. The dual filter arrangement is a big improvement but is not fully satisfactory. Keep in mind that the filter has the most chance to clog and the engine to stop, when the fuel flow is maximum, i.e. during the take off phase. I believe you would crash before having time to switch to the other filter, should that happen to you.
When I was flying with the Rotax 914, I experienced several engine stoppages, at cruise, due to filter contamination. Fortunately, thanks for the dual filter arrangement, the engine resumed running when the second fuel pump was turned on, and I managed to land safely on an airport every time. Some others have not been as lucky.
Replacing the dual in-line filters by dual gascolators was the first modification I made to my aircraft.
When I installed the 912S, I removed 1 of them. 914 owners have to consider that the fuel flow through the filter can be as much as 4 to 5 times the fuel consumption of the engine, due to the huge flow returned back to the tank. Therefore the filter(s) on 914 installation must be designed as for a 500 HP engine!
My recommendation is to throw away the supplied in-line filters and use one (or two) gascolators big enough for the task. There are plenty of sources on the market. A gascolator will also be a lot easier to service than the in-line filters. If you are using the Andair GAS375, make sure you have the new filter screen which is has a lot bigger screen area than the original model.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 89 hours since fitted with the 912S.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
flyinggpa(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


All
I fitted the Mini Gascolator GAS125 to a Rotax 912S. It works very well and has far more capacity than the fuel pumps can demand. It is a very good water trap and catches the very smallest of FOD that find there way into my tank. I do not think that a larger unit is needed for this installation. Just my two cense worth.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
PS: I wish it would stop raining Sad
. Therefore the filter(s) on 914 installation must be designed as for a 500 HP engine!
My recommendation is to throw away the supplied in-line filters and use one (or two) gascolators big enough for the task. There are plenty of sources on the market. A gascolator will also be a lot easier to service than the in-line filters. If you are using the Andair GAS375, make sure you have the new filter screen which is has a lot bigger screen area than the original model.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Bravo Remi for your courage to denounce a system that failed.
Karel Vranken


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Well done Cliff.
Karel Vranken


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Hmmmmmmm. My experience with the two inline 914 filters has been just fine.
I changed the filters once after the first 10 hours, and then again at 175
hours. I now have 400 hours and will probably change them at my next annual
inspection. I've never had a problem. Oh, and I use mogas, unfiltered, and
I've never had any water in my tanks either.
Garry Stout
N4220S A060 Trigear 914, 400 hours


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
SPurpura(at)AOL.COM
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


I disagree that Mogas is not a clean fuel. The only place you will get dirty
fuel over in the USA would be at the airport as auto fuel retailers have a
much
cleaner product as they are held to a higer standard than the FBO retailer and
after checking your filters after using 100LL you would agree.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Quote:
Hmmmmmmm. My experience with the two inline 914 filters has been just
fine.

250 hrs in and never a filter problem in G-JULZ. I echo your comments.
Please let us not criticise a system that is operating successfully in
dozens of aircraft because of a suspect installation/fuel supply.
regards,
MP


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


My own experience is just the opposite. I flew my previous aircraft (a certified ROBIN with a O-360 Lycoming running exclusively on AVGAS) for 10 years and 800 hours, without having ever found anything in the gascolator screen. Since I fly the Europa, mainly on MOGAS, I keep finding some dirt, most of it stays in the filtering funnel, some find its way to the tank. So, better be careful and have a good filter/gascolator.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, S/N395, XS monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 89 hours since fitted with
the 912S.
I disagree that Mogas is not a clean fuel. The only place you will get dirty
fuel over in the USA would be at the airport as auto fuel retailers have a
much
cleaner product as they are held to a higer standard than the FBO retailer and
after checking your filters after using 100LL you would agree.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
air.guerner(at)wanadoo.fr
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Gary Stout wrote: Hmmmmmmm. My experience with the two inline 914 filters has been just fine
Gary,
Obviously you belong to the majority of Europa owners who have yet to experience an engine stoppage due to fuel contamination and therefore say that the original in line filters are just fine. We had two Europa accidents here in France due to clogged filters: one killed the pilot; the other one damaged the airplane extensively and the pilot was very lucky. This is for a small fleet of 17 Europas flying in this country. So one out of ten crashed due to clogged filters ! This can happen to you! Don't take chances, upgrade your fuel system with a good gascolator.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, S/N395, XS monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 89 hours since fitted with
the 912S.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


I've been following this thread and I think I want to step in here. I
mounted my filters under an armrest door/ cover in the tunnel just
between the seats. I can open the hatch and look at the filters in
flight and on pre flight instantly. My thoughts are if your engine goes
silent, change to the other side of the tank as that filter should be
clear. Land and replace both. I mean isn't that why we have two anyway?
Jeff
A258
Towing to the airport as soon as I get over this flu!
Quote:

Gary Stout wrote: Hmmmmmmm. My experience with the two inline 914
filters has been just fine
Gary,
Obviously you belong to the majority of Europa owners who have yet to
experience an engine stoppage due to fuel contamination and therefore
say that the original in line filters are just fine. We had two
Europa accidents here in France due to clogged filters: one killed the
pilot; the other one damaged the airplane extensively and the pilot
was very lucky. This is for a small fleet of 17 Europas flying in this
country. So one out of ten crashed due to clogged filters ! This can
happen to you! Don't take chances, upgrade your fuel system with a
good gascolator.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, S/N395, XS monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 89 hours since
fitted with
the 912S.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Hi!
Well said "Rmi".
I think it's rather like landing "gear up"....there's those that have
and those that will!!!!!!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 c/w gascolator, water drain
valves, filler gauze and tank connectors re-drilled .!


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Hi! Jeff
Sorry about the 'flu. It's more topical over here!
I hear your theory but it has one slight draw back..... the reserve side
will attract a bigger deposit of contamination (since that side gets all
the fill up fuel and the main side on the other side of the tunnel has
consequently less chance of contamination.) So when you switch to the
reserve side(having had the "splutters" from the main)you can bet it
will be for a very short time !
Sorry guys IMHO and experience the inline filters just can not
accommodate, or for that matter certainly not separate any water.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 c/w gascolator ....etc etc.!
then there's the dog hairs!!!! Beat you to the punch Nev!


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Quote:
I hear your theory but it has one slight draw back..... the reserve side
will attract a bigger deposit of contamination (since that side gets all
the fill up fuel and the main side on the other side of the tunnel has
consequently less chance of contamination.) So when you switch to the
reserve side(having had the "splutters" from the main)you can bet it
will be for a very short time !
Sorry guys IMHO and experience the inline filters just can not
accommodate, or for that matter certainly not separate any water.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 c/w gascolator ....etc etc.!
then there's the dog hairs!!!! Beat you to the punch Nev!

Bob,
This seems to me to be a question of care and good practices. If one is
careful to keep any rubbish out of the system during the building, and
filter all fuel that goes into the tank, clogging should not be an issue.
The small deposits that will accumulate overtime are adequately handled by
routine filter changes.
I don't think the Proline filters are intended to be water seperators - just
inline filters.
Of course large filters might be required if one's power unit uses a lot of
fuel.(teehee!!)
regards,
Mike
3 German Shepherds but never a problem of doghair in the workshop.


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Quote:
The filters supplied by Europa Aircraft have none of those characteristics
and are therefore potentially dangerous. This is especially true as most
of us are using Mogas which is more likely to be contaminated, even when
using a filtering funnel at every fill up. The dual filter arrangement is
a big improvement but is not fully satisfactory. Keep in mind that the
filter has the most chance to clog and the engine to stop, when the fuel
flow is maximum, i.e. during the take off phase. I believe you would crash
before having time to switch to the other filter, should that happen to
you.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 89 hours since fitted
with the 912S.

Remi,
I have the original pump and filter layout for a 914 installation. On the
original installation there is no facility to switch to a second filter.
Fuel flow through the standby filter depends totally on the standby pump.
My experience has shown that what contamination there may be in the system,
it has never manifested itself in the 'standby filter'. Possibly because I
only use the secondary pump during critical flight phases (generally below
1000' AGL). That means if following the correct operating procedures, both
pumps are ON during take-off and initial climb - therefore both filters and
both pumps are in use when the fuel flow is at a maximum. Switching from
MAIN to RESERVE will only be of benefit if there is a flow restriction
before the fuel selector. ( perhaps the finger strainer - which is were I
understand Bob Harrison's problem was.)
Incidentally, I did have a splutter in the cruise when I purposely ran the
MAIN side down to get a feel for the usuable fuel indication. (Overhead the
field!!). I fitted a fuel Low Pressure light to G-JULZ - the light blinked
several times before the engine 'coughed' giving a little warning of the
impending problem.
regards,
Mike


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
BEBERRY(at)AOL.COM
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:26 am    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote



- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


Hi! Mike.
I thought I had been meticulous but as you said it was the finger
filters which caught me out and for what it's worth if all that they
both had collected were to be put into the gascolator it would still NOT
have starved the engine (No matter how much fuel it uses !)
So now I don't have finger filters, I have opened up the drilling
intersections within the tank connectors and use a fine gauze filter in
the filler when filling but I bet if you tried you'd get German Shepherd
hairs through it (end on!) and your finger filters would manage to grab
them if you had the misfortune to get the problem.
The irony in my case was that, even though I only use the reserve side
the requisite occasional proof period, it had collected sufficient to
suffer the same problem as the main side so both finger filters had
failed within 10 minutes of each other with nothing found in the
gascolator further down the line. My experience with the Europa in line
original filters was early during test flying from tank swarf in the
usual manner often found.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 (able to use as much fuel as
it needs at all times !)


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
bryan(at)blackballclub.co
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Europa-list: fitting gascolator Reply with quote


My experience is the same as Gary's. 100's of hours with no problems using
the Europa in line filters.
One exception though! I normally filter when using mogas. On one occasion
this year I used a can of someone else's mogas en-route to France. One hour
later the fuel pressure dropped really low, even with the electric pump
doubling up. I switched to the other fuel line with the second filter, and
the pressure came back up. After landing I cleaned a load of rubbish out of
the first filter, the second was clean.
I flew the rest of the trip around France on the first filter without
problem. Some weeks later the problem started to come back, so I stripped
the filter again and examined the debris under a microscope. Surprisingly,
the contents looked like scraps of ant bodies. Legs, heads, body parts. It
has never recurred, but how they got in there is a test of the imagination.
Cheers. Bryan Allsop


- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group