Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

carb or fuel injection? turbo?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Engines-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

Could it be that the turbo is designed primarily to maintain full power at
altitude? Or possibly to allow the engine to operate at far greater
altitudes.

Consider also the removal of carb heat and the possibility of icing.

Noel

[quote] --


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

Injected eliminates carb heat issues and almost all induction icing
issues. It's also more efficient and seems to be pretty much universal
on higher performance engines although it is more expensive. On a IO-360
the turbocharging is actually turbo-normalizing which means that it
allows you to develop more horsepower at higher altitudes. The only
stock turbochargers I'm aware of have a fixed waste gate which is not
particularly effective. There is an stc'd turbo charger made by Rajay
for the IO-360 that is much better but it's also about $10,000 last time
I looked several years ago. There are also substantially higher
maintenance costs associated with turbo charging although I think your
800 hour TBO is probably on the turbo and not the entire engine.

The bottom line for me was that a turbo might be worth the added expense
and complexity if you live in the mountains of the West or regularily
fly out there but not for me living in the flat lands of the Midwest. If
I did get a turbo it would not be the one with a fixed waste gate. I'd
spend the bucks for a Rajay.

just my 2 cents.

John

T22 wrote:

Quote:


Does anybody have any insight on pros/cons of carberator versus fuel injection? How about adding a turbo? Lycoming's website for 360 engines (see link below) lists the turbocharged injected engine at 800hours (40%) less TBO plus 100lbs additional weight for only 20HP gained.
Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122513#122513





- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
longg(at)pjm.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

John et al,
I would note that if you like to fly high the turbo/super will
help you get there faster with reduced power loss and consistent climb.
Even if you live in the east or mid-west there is a cost to the climb.
My old Piper with the O-320 was a great plane, but you'd spend the weeks
paycheck in fuel getting to 10k and if it was the middle of summer,
you'd have to flatten out every 10-15 so you wouldn't melt the heads.
There are plenty of advantages and, as John said a cost to turbo
systems. I am building a Lancair Legacy and will use a supercharged
Subaru. Superchargers have their own pros and cons. The greatest
advantage of the supercharger is the no-lag response and minimal heat
issues. On the turbo systems, the exhaust system is complex and ouch -
it gets very hot which leads to shorter life and more $$$ on exhaust
pipe. If you go with the Subaru turbo, you can actually loose the
exhaust system and just use a short pipe.
The people with the most experience in Lycoming turbos' has to
be Lancair. You just don't buy these of the shelf. They will sell you a
TNIO-390X with for 40k. All of their machine work is done on the
premises. They do great work. My Subaru which will also put out 210-220
HP FWF is about $25k.

--


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

In a message dated 7/6/2007 3:25:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, longg(at)pjm.com writes:
Quote:
The people with the most experience in Lycoming turbos' has to
be Lancair. You just don't buy these of the shelf. They will sell you a
TNIO-390X with for 40k. All of their machine work is done on the
premises. They do great work. My Subaru which will also put out 210-220
HP FWF is about $25k.


Is that for the Eggenfeller package?

See what's free at AOL.com.
[quote][b]


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

I would like to add that another option is an Ellison Throttle Body Injector
'carburettor'. If well set up, you can lean as well as FI without the
cost, weight and complexity of FI. The CAFE Mooney runs an IO-360-A1B6
with an Ellison rather than FI. Check their 'site for details. An
Ellison also means only a low pressure fuel pump is needed, thus less cost
again, and no fuel return line is needed, so plumbing is easier also. Carb
heat is recommended with them, but they are less susceptible to icing than a
standard carb, and you need/should have alternate air with FI anyway.

Just to be clear, FI as used on aircraft is not EFI as used on cars. FI is
all mechanical.

Grant Piper

---


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

Is the Ellison system also what used to be referred to as a pressure
carburettor?

Noel

[quote] --


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

If you are running a subaru, and thinking about supercharger you should talk
to Ron at RAM ,If anybody knows supercharging a subaru it would be Ron..
Joe N101HD 601 XL
---


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

No. Pressure carbs were most commonly used on Bonanzas. They are a
very sophisticated carb that functions like an altitude compensated
throttle body injection.
Several erroneous pieces of info already mentioned.
The difference between a 180hp O-360 and 200 hp IO-360 is about 35
lbs, not 100. The injected engine will run LOP, most with stock
injectors. A carb won't without some extra effort to vaporize the fuel
and that takes heat, which reduces power. The difference in TBO is
ZERO, NADA,ZIP. Both are 2000 hour TBO. The difference in power is
most felt for takeoff and climb, much less in cruise.
A throttle body injection like the Ellison is susceptible to throttle
icing, and won't have as good mixture distribution as a port injection
system like the Bendix. Bendix system is very simple, no user
adjustments beyond idle speed and mixture, minimal maintenance, very
reliable.
KM
A&P/IA

On 7/6/07, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:
[quote]

Is the Ellison system also what used to be referred to as a pressure
carburettor?

Noel

> --


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:30 am    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

Hi Noel,

No, it uses a diaphram that opens with airflow to supply fuel to the
metering tube with many small holes in it extending acroos the carb. throat.
A flat slide (the throttle) uncovers the tube, and thus more holes, as you
open the throttle. The mixture is adjusted by rotating the metering tube
so that the holes face into the airflow (full lean) or ~90° to the airflow
(full rich). There is also a separate simple mixture circuit for idle
adjustment. There is no float bowl, so it doesn't care which way up it is.
It will work with gravity or low pressure (2-6psi) fuel supply. They are
susceptible to hiccups with hot fuel vaporising on the ground due to having
no float bowl to separate the fuel from the vapour, but I have found it
clears immediately high power/fuel flow is demanded. Hot starts are
excellent cf. FI. I think they are a good thing, but there aren't a great
number of people using them so there is little corporate knowledge out there
about them. I like the lightness and simplicity, and will live with the
odd hiccup when hot.

Grant Piper
---


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
Back to top
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo? Reply with quote

Thanks I'll Google Elliston and have a closer look.

Noel

[quote] --


- The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Engines-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group