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carb or fuel injection? turbo?

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

Could it be that the turbo is designed primarily to maintain full power at

altitude?  Or possibly to allow the engine to operate at far greater

altitudes.



Consider also the removal of carb heat and the possibility of icing.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

grosseair(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

Injected eliminates carb heat issues and almost all induction icing 

issues. It's also more efficient and seems to be pretty much universal 

on higher performance engines although it is more expensive. On a IO-360 

the turbocharging is actually turbo-normalizing which means that it 

allows you to develop more horsepower at higher altitudes. The only 

stock turbochargers I'm aware of have a fixed waste gate which is not 

particularly effective. There is an stc'd turbo charger made by Rajay 

for the IO-360 that is much better but it's also about $10,000 last time 

I looked several years ago. There are also substantially higher 

maintenance costs associated with turbo charging although I think your 

800 hour TBO is probably on the turbo and not the entire engine.



The bottom line for me was that a turbo might be worth the added expense 

and complexity if you live in the mountains of the West or regularily 

fly out there but not for me living in the flat lands of the Midwest. If 

I did get a turbo it would not be the one with a fixed waste gate. I'd 

spend the bucks for a Rajay.



just my 2 cents.



John



T22 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Does anybody have any insight on pros/cons of carberator versus fuel injection?  How about adding a turbo?  Lycoming's website for 360 engines (see link below) lists the turbocharged injected engine at 800hours (40%) less TBO plus 100lbs additional weight for only 20HP gained.

Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=122513#122513

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

John et al,

	I would note that if you like to fly high the turbo/super will

help you get there faster with reduced power loss and consistent climb.

Even if you live in the east or mid-west there is a cost to the climb.

My old Piper with the O-320 was a great plane, but you'd spend the weeks

paycheck in fuel getting to 10k and if it was the middle of summer,

you'd have to flatten out every 10-15 so you wouldn't melt the heads.

	There are plenty of advantages and, as John said a cost to turbo

systems. I am building a Lancair Legacy and will use a supercharged

Subaru. Superchargers have their own pros and cons. The greatest

advantage of the supercharger is the no-lag response and minimal heat

issues. On the turbo systems, the exhaust system is complex and ouch -

it gets very hot which leads to shorter life and more $$$ on exhaust

pipe. If you go with the Subaru turbo, you can actually loose the

exhaust system and just use a short pipe.

	The people with the most experience in Lycoming turbos' has to

be Lancair. You just don't buy these of the shelf. They will sell you a

TNIO-390X with for 40k. All of their machine work is done on the

premises. They do great work. My Subaru which will also put out 210-220

HP FWF is about $25k.



--

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

In a message dated 7/6/2007 3:25:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  longg(at)pjm.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The    people with the most experience in Lycoming turbos' has to

be Lancair. You    just don't buy these of the shelf. They will sell you a

TNIO-390X with for    40k. All of their machine work is done on the

premises. They do great work.    My Subaru which will also put out 210-220

HP FWF is about  $25k.

	


 

 Is that for the Eggenfeller  package?



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

I would like to add that another option is an Ellison Throttle Body Injector 

'carburettor'.   If well set up, you can lean as well as FI without the 

cost, weight and complexity of FI.   The CAFE Mooney runs an IO-360-A1B6 

with an Ellison rather than FI.   Check their 'site for details.   An 

Ellison also means only a low pressure fuel pump is needed, thus less cost 

again, and no fuel return line is needed, so plumbing is easier also.   Carb 

heat is recommended with them, but they are less susceptible to icing than a 

standard carb, and you need/should have alternate air with FI anyway.



Just to be clear, FI as used on aircraft is not EFI as used on cars.   FI is 

all mechanical.



Grant Piper



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

Is the Ellison system also what used to be referred to as a pressure

carburettor?



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

If you are running a subaru, and thinking about supercharger you should talk 

to Ron at RAM  ,If anybody knows supercharging a subaru it would be Ron.. 

Joe N101HD 601 XL

---

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

No. Pressure carbs were most commonly used on Bonanzas. They are a

very sophisticated carb that functions like an altitude compensated

throttle body injection.

Several erroneous pieces of info already mentioned.

The difference between a 180hp O-360 and 200 hp IO-360 is about 35

lbs, not 100. The injected engine will run LOP, most with stock

injectors. A carb won't without some extra effort to vaporize the fuel

and that takes heat, which reduces power.  The difference in TBO is

ZERO, NADA,ZIP.  Both are 2000 hour TBO. The difference in power is

most felt for takeoff and climb, much less in cruise.

A throttle body injection like the Ellison is susceptible to throttle

icing, and won't have as good mixture distribution as a port injection

system like the Bendix. Bendix system is very simple, no user

adjustments beyond idle speed and mixture, minimal maintenance, very

reliable.

KM

A&P/IA



On 7/6/07, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

[quote] 



 Is the Ellison system also what used to be referred to as a pressure

 carburettor?



 Noel



 > --

grant.piper(at)bigpond.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

Hi Noel,



No, it uses a diaphram that opens with airflow to supply fuel to the 

metering tube with many small holes in it extending acroos the carb. throat. 

A flat slide (the throttle) uncovers the tube, and thus more holes, as you 

open the throttle.   The mixture is adjusted by rotating the metering tube 

so that the holes face into the airflow (full lean) or ~90° to the airflow 

(full rich).   There is also a separate simple mixture circuit for idle 

adjustment.   There is no float bowl, so it doesn't care which way up it is. 

It will work with gravity or low pressure (2-6psi) fuel supply.   They are 

susceptible to hiccups with hot fuel vaporising on the ground due to having 

no float bowl to separate the fuel from the vapour, but I have found it 

clears immediately high power/fuel flow is demanded.   Hot starts are 

excellent cf. FI.   I think they are a good thing, but there aren't a great 

number of people using them so there is little corporate knowledge out there 

about them.   I like the lightness and simplicity, and will live with the 

odd hiccup when hot.



Grant Piper

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: carb or fuel injection? turbo?

Thanks I'll Google Elliston and have a closer look.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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