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Vernier vs. Quadrant observations

 
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:26 am    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

I know the throttle quadrant vs. Vernier push-pulls is a
topic of debate for the builders. I'll disclose that I
leaned toward the quadrant side from the looks and feel
standpoint from the beginning, so I am slightly biased
in that regards. My Beech also had a quadrant that I
liked very much, and I think they look nicer.

Now that I've put in 5 hours of Transition Training in
N220RV with push-pulls, and put in a bit less in my own
with a quadrant, I'll offer this observation.

John will attest that I had a royal pain with the vernier.
The prop was OK, in that I could dial it out and get it
fairly close. The Throttle was not vernier but only
push-pull. I had a b*#ch of a time with the throttle on
N220RV. When Mike called for 2350RPM (at) 14", it was
VERY hard to get precise...often I'd be well over 2"
off in MP, and it would take a lot of work to get
within 50 of RPM. This is not at all picking on the
AFS engine monitor, but I do wonder if perhaps a slow
sampling rate on the AFS might have contributed....I'd
pull the power or adjust the prop, and it seemed like
the display on the AFS would take a second or two to
stabilize out and read the true reading. At any rate,
the push-pulls were hard. During the flight, Mike
commented that he liked the push-pulls because it was
easier to get precisely set. I also noticed on the RV-10
that the brackets securing them are kind of flimsy, so you
get a bit of flex in the bracket. No problem...they
just feel flimsy but are plenty adequate for strength.

In contrast, my quadrant is not giving me any of the same
issues. I can come much closer to precision setting
of both MP and RPM. It works very well. Now, if the AFS
were to blame (I'm using the GRT EIS which feeds my Chelton
screens), then that could improve my feeling for the
push-pulls. I do think though, that I can set the
Throttle more precisely with the quadrant. It is probably
due to the longer lever arm, which would allow me to move my
hand a small amount, and it would move the actual cable
less distance than a push-pull.

At any rate, it was hard enough getting it right in
N220RV, and I noticed enough of a difference flying mine,
that I thought I'd point that out. If you're currently
on the fence and don't know which way to go, perhaps
that bit of info will give you the feedback you wanted.

Tim
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Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

Tim:

Do you know what the update rate is for the data from the GRT to your
Cheltons?

TDT
40025
Firewall Forward
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jjessen(at)rcn.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

In my experience with quadrants on Pipers and Katanas, I'd take push pull
any day because of what you were describing, a lack of ability to make fine
adjustments. Very interesting. I'd like to know how the quadrants are hold
position. Is it a friction knob or some other that gets them to maintain
their station?

John Jessen
~328 (Tailcone)

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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

No, I don't know the update rate on any of the systems. I do
wonder though if that wasn't a huge contributing factor to
what I noticed. The GRT appears to be very quick to respond
to throttle and prop changes. I'm sure that if one samples
at .1 sec intervals, and one is .01, that's probably a very
noticeable change.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
[quote]

Tim:

Do you know what the update rate is for the data from the GRT to your
Cheltons?

TDT
40025
Firewall Forward
Do not archive

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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

It's funny though, the quadrant for the -10 is very (more) precise
for me. The quadrants have a lever-lock friction lock on the right
side. I don't even have mine cranked at all, and even with no
extra friction lock, my settings maintain indefinitely. It's a
pretty nice quadrant, actually. My only complaint is that the
quadrant is delivered without any covers on the sides or front.
After I get ready to put the carpet in (after a good long leak
check period) I'm going to build a faux-leather cover for the
quadrant. In the long run, I'll probably put a fiberglass
console under it (small one) for holding charts....if I see the
need.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Jessen wrote:
[quote]

In my experience with quadrants on Pipers and Katanas, I'd take push pull
any day because of what you were describing, a lack of ability to make fine
adjustments. Very interesting. I'd like to know how the quadrants are hold
position. Is it a friction knob or some other that gets them to maintain
their station?

John Jessen
~328 (Tailcone)

do not archive

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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

And there's a difference between sampling rate (engine system sampling
the actual sensors), and the update rate (the rate that the engine
system actually outputs the values to other boxes).

Most certified engine systems I know don't output any faster than 8 Hz
(0.125 sec), which is more than adequate. I think if you get slower
than 4 Hz (0.25 sec) you could start to notice a difference.

TDT
40025
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

In the case of the ACS-2005 box, it's sampled directly
by that box and displayed on the same I think.
In my case it's being sampled by the GRT EIS, and
I think it's running 38,400 baud into the Chelton
via serial. Sorry I don't have better specs than that.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Dawson-Townsend wrote:
[quote]


And there's a difference between sampling rate (engine system sampling
the actual sensors), and the update rate (the rate that the engine
system actually outputs the values to other boxes).

Most certified engine systems I know don't output any faster than 8 Hz
(0.125 sec), which is more than adequate. I think if you get slower
than 4 Hz (0.25 sec) you could start to notice a difference.

TDT
40025


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johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Vernier vs. Quadrant observations Reply with quote

Each pilot becomes one with their engine and prop controls over time.
Some are more precise than others. A vernier pushed in 1/32" gives one
response and a Quadrant pushed in 1/32" with a 5" arm gives entirely
another. It is a personal choice.

The choice can be subjective rather than objective. There must be a
reason that twins, turbos, VL jets and military use a quadrant and
C-150s use a simple cable. You think? The advantage to the vernier is
not the Push-Pull but rather the fine precision wrist twist with a new
and properly functioning cable. That technique is usually for slow
meticulous trimming at cruise. Ever tried a loose one? Same control is
possible with a Quadrant - they just look classier. IMHO.

There are now a number of models (more than 4)available for the kit
builder from $200 to over $1200 (all stainless steel). Just go visit
the Lancair site or maybe Tim will post the picture I sent him.

Tim did just fine on last week's transition training. The delayed
signal response or several other possible factors may have contributed
to any perceived offset. I watched the rpms dance in 10 digit
increments up/down change but the acoustic pitch was more predictable as
you would expect from the engine. It is called Transition Training. The
maneuvers were of constantly changing pitch, bank, rpm and prop setting.
The picture outside the cockpit was all foreign. Hills, trees,
mountains and power lines. Most of us can relate to rapid fire T&Gs ....
Right? The desire to please ourselves or our instructor can provide an
overriding priority to tactile actions. We all want to be SH pilots
when viewed by others.

I still appreciate the four days of beautiful weather he brought. Now
we are back to the 20s-30s temp and rain. I also appreciate his "Post
Build... Flying" recitation here. Randy, Doug, Vic, Jim, Mike, etc we
are dying for good flying stats here like W&B, Ops Manual, Vx Vy, fuel
burn.

William Curtis, if your are still going the Conti IO-360 I think you
will be pleased. John G, give that alternate powerplant research a
serious work over and read the archives. I can share offline what I
have found.
Congrats Tim!

John $00.02

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