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Propeller discussions

 
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paul.mcallister



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Hi all,

Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They
make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic. The
electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the
propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster. As far
as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of
$6000.00 US which is similar to the MT. I know that the Airplast and
Woodcomp's are a lot less than this.

So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why am
I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to
be serviced in another country is way too much hassle. The MT are assembled
& serviced in the US.

Paul


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SPurpura(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

I THOUGHT THAT THE MT PROP WAS GERMAN MFG.

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paul.mcallister



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Sam,

Yes they are made in Germany and assembled in US. There factory is in
Florida.

Paul

do not archive

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Unless I'm just having a large brain fart..... aren't Airmasters for the
europa 63"? Seems like 70+ is just a bit long...

Jeff - N55XS
140 hours

Paul McAllister wrote:

Quote:


Hi all,

Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They
make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic. The
electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the
propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster. As far
as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of
$6000.00 US which is similar to the MT. I know that the Airplast and
Woodcomp's are a lot less than this.

So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why am
I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to
be serviced in another country is way too much hassle. The MT are assembled
& serviced in the US.

Paul








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Ivor Phillips



Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:04 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Hi Paul
Bob Harrison has been using a MT three blade constant speed propeller for
the last Five years on his Jabiru 3300,
Give him a call if you need more info! ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
---


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paul.mcallister



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:25 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Jeff,

I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183
cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown
for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"

So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in
diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.

My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that
the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over
the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a
multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but
seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.
Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then its
just an opinion.

Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 nm
range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is
seductive.

My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't
very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist for
the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another
propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably
not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
Europa community.

Cheers, Paul


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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:33 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

<<I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
Quote:
Europa community.

Cheers, Paul>>

Could be something to do with the price!
The MT tends to be heavier too.
There is a lot of experience with the MT on hte 4-seater BanBi; maybe that
is more to do with "certification", alhtough one gets hte impression that
the MT prop is custom-matched by the manufacturer to hte particular
aircraft.
Perhaps Gilles could comment.
Duncan Mcf.


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kheindl(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:44 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Paul,

Are yu sure about the 72"?. I am not near my Europa at the moment, but I
could have sworn that that should read 62".
I had investigated the Hoffmann (also German) propeller, because it is widey
used on certified aircraft with Rotax, i.e. Katana, Dimona and other
motorgliders. It is 2-blade, cs, and feathering.
It is unlikely to be interesting for the Europa because: it is hydraulic,
twice as heavy as the Airmaster setup, and twice as expensive as the
Airmaster.
As far as I know, Airmaster don't actually make propellers. They make the
AC200 control box and electronics etc. and fit it with the Warp Drive.
I am also planning to upgrade this year and my present choice is the new
Woodcomp SR3000 with twin-blade of 170cm (67"). Anything longer would not be
wise on the Europa, and definately not on the mono. Reason for the 2-blade
version is reduced drag whenever I am in glider mode (one of these days).

Karl
Quote:
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>
Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Propeller discussions
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:21:03 -0600


<paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>

Jeff,

I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183
cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown
for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"

So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in
diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.

My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that
the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over
the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a
multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but
seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.
Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then
its
just an opinion.

Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800
nm
range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is
seductive.

My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't
very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist
for
the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another
propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably
not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
Europa community.

Cheers, Paul




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lmorgan822(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Look for Vari-Prop at Sun'n'fun. Bolt on hydraulic system with blades custom fitted to your application. Lighter weight than Airmaster.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

There is a vague reference to it (including photo) at:
http://www.beltedair.com/
But I couldn't find anything else either.

Duncan Mcf.
---


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karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Paul,
You never heard of Rutan (Voyager) about MT?
Karel Vranken.
---


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lmorgan822(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:20 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Hi Jos,

We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web site for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant on a T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in the 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, etc, although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a reduction drive.

I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at lmorgan822(at)hotmail.com. 503-804-5508.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Larry Morgan


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Jos,
Could you ask Larry to scan some brochures for placing on the Photoshare?
And/or ask for details of a Europa compliant variant (eg 64" 3-blade).

Duncan Mcf.
do not archive
---


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Karl, You are right - 62" or 1600mm is the standard diameter prop fitted to
the Europa. 64" or 1625mm is the maximum that Europa recommend or that PFA
will approve, at least for the mono and I doubt it would be more for the
tricycle.
If you have the SR3000 it will feather. Do you really feel that 3
blades will make a significant difference to glide performance when
feathered?
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
---


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:46 am    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Greetings Duncan and Jos,

I have brochures that I can send and will try to scan. I am not a computer whiz!!!

We can custom make blades to any length you need. I currently have a set of 64's. These blades are not cut down from something else. They are actually made from scratch for your particular application.

If anyone knows of a "Europa Driver" in the Pacific Northwest USA that would like to do some tests, I need to talk to them.

Thanks,

Larry

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Propeller discussions Reply with quote

Dave,

I think you mean 2 blades. I haven't really decided yet and it all depends
what Woodcomp say about differences in performance. I got the impression
from Jiri that the twin-blades perform better, but I am not convinced yet.
The drag improvement in gliding may be very minimal, but other advantages
are: less weight, lower price, and better visibility in gliding mode
whenever the prop stops in the horizontal position.

Best regards, Karl

do not archive
[quote]From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>
Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Propeller discussions
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:39:05 -0000


<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

Karl, You are right - 62" or 1600mm is the standard diameter prop fitted to
the Europa. 64" or 1625mm is the maximum that Europa recommend or that PFA
will approve, at least for the mono and I doubt it would be more for the
tricycle.
If you have the SR3000 it will feather. Do you really feel that
3
blades will make a significant difference to glide performance when
feathered?
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
---


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