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Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

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L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

So why doesn't the FFDO fly the plane and  let the passengers kill the terrorists?  Even if the 100-300 passengers  failed to subdue the five terrorists, the plane would remain under  control (e.g. NOT crash into a skyscraper) and all would  be well.

  

 Or we could put two sky marshalls on the  plane.  It can't be done, you say?  No airliner takes off without two  pilots and at least three flight attendants.  How is it possible to mandate  that and not be able to mandate two sky marshals?  Cost?  Cops  come cheaper than airline pilots, so if the flight can afford two pilots, how  much would the trip total cost go up with two sky marshals?  A percent or  two, maybe.

  

 The FFDO program is as poorly conceived and  implemented as the rest of the TSA's post-911 panic reaction. 

  	  Quote:

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

Actually your number of flt attendants is way off.  Only 1 flt att is required for each 30 seats.  So, if you are on a CRJ, odds are you have 1 flt att only.  Granted terrorist haven't hijacked sm a/c, but what is to stop them from doing so...might even be easier w/ less people...that is why the 9-11 terrorist chose those particular flts...low pax rates at that hour to those destinations.

   

  The FAM program is actually being scaled back too.  There are not enough FAMs to be on board even 1/10th of the flt that are in the US at any time.  During the daylight hours in this country, we (NORAD/FAA) are tracking more than 20K a/c that are sqk'n and on flt plans.  Granted many are charter, etc, but you can imagine that the majority are part 21 and in no concievable way could there be a FAM on each flt.

   

  I am all for arming the pilots with tazers and/or guns.  Many pilots have refused a  nd it is  not madatory, but I can tell you that I can't imagine any prior military pilot, that is used to carrying an M9 into combat, wouldn't under current conditions, want to carry a gun.  We, as servants of uncle sam are all required to maintain quals in the M9 and/or M16 every 1-3 years.  I am quite sure that these pilots that are FFDOs are rigorously trained in the tactics of using their weapons as well as appropriate actions to take, i.e. when to leave the secure cockpit and risk going into the cabin and thereby risking cockpit breaching.  They are not going to end up like the dudes on 9-11 and get their throats slashed trying to do their job.  I say we give them a fighting chance and let them protect their lives, their pax and their aircraft.

   

  The FAM portion of the TSA is the real failure.  Bored guys, riding around for 16 hours a day on an a/c or sitting in a terminal, trying to blend in, mandatory to stay awake, ugh...no  thanks!

   

  Smash



Ron Davis <L39parts(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		          So why doesn't the FFDO fly the plane and let the passengers kill the terrorists?  Even if the 100-300 passengers failed to subdue the five terrorists, the plane would remain under control (e.g. NOT crash into a skyscraper) and all would be well.

   

  Or we could put two sky marshalls on the plane.  It can't be done, you say?  No airliner takes off without two pilots and at least three flight attendants.  How is it possible to mandate that and not be able to mandate two sky marshals?  Cost?  Cops come cheaper t  han  airline pilots, so if the flight can afford two pilots, how much would the trip total cost go up with two sky marshals?  A percent or two, maybe.

   

  The FFDO program is as poorly conceived and implemented as the rest of the TSA's post-911 panic reaction. 

   	  Quote: 	
		    	
	
  

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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

Sara,

 I believe the Flight Attendant requirement is one per 49  passengers.  50 to 99 passengers requires 2 F.A.'s.  That's why  the regional jets, which typically have between 40 and 49 passengers only have 1  FA.   But I could be wrong.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

Actually, an airplane with 20 or more seats requires a FA. Thats why the Beech 1900 is so popular as it only has 19 seats. We (Continental Express) operate the EMB-135 (37 seats) and EMB-145 (50 seats) and we have one flight attendant. I the magic number for 2 FA's is 51 to 100, then 1 for every 50 past that.



Back to the original thread. I was at first opposed to the pilots being armed because the security of the cockpit is paramount. For a pilot to use his/her weapon in the cabin would open the cockpit up to a threat. Now, I think a weapon in the cockpit is more like nuclear weapons, they serve as a deterrent. I have yet to attend the FFDO, but I have heard the training is INTENSE and very thorough. The training is conducted mostly by former federal agents and SpecOps types. You are issued your own weapon (H&K USP Sub Compact LEM .40) and are required to requal every six months. That too is changing and will make the requal more stringent. Also, the FFDO program is now under direct control of the FAM program. All in all, it is another step in protecting our aircraft from those that would do us arm. 



As a side note, there have been concerns with regional aircraft. Since they do only carry one FA, they are a target. Be careful though, regionals have the greatest number of armed pilots..especially here in Houston!

Last edited by HawkerPilot2015 on Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total

PeteAbbott(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

As Archie Bunker stated in the series "All in the Family". 

  

 Give everybody a gun as they get on the plane.

  

 Pete Abbott

 N852GC

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

Do Not Archive

   

  Yeah, trying to think back to my ATP test, I know it's always 1, but I thought it was 1 for every 30 after that...but that was 4 years ago when I took the test.  Makes more sense though to be 1 every 50 after the initial 1.

   

  Smash



"A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]    Sara,

  I believe the Flight Attendant requirement is one per 49 passengers.  50 to 99 passengers requires 2 F.A.'s.  That's why the regional jets, which typically have between 40 and 49 passengers only have 1 FA.   But I could be wrong.

  Dennis

   

    ---

Valkyre1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

OK, another non-related to Yaks question, but a  good one and dear to my heart.

 A question for you Ron... are you an FFDO? It  doesn't sound like it from your brief assessment of how we work.

 You are right that cost is always in question  whenever safety comes into the picture. That's why we have pilot unions to fight  the bean counters in DC and at our airlines on behalf of safety, and they rely  on our opposition as a counter balance. 

 I have a dear friend who is a FAM and the  TSA is working to par them down as well since the public outcry re: 911 is  dying down a bit. 

 Airlne pilots had to fight tooth and nail to get  our FFDO program because the Airlines would rather pass up the deterrent value  than face a possible, but unsubstantiated liability issue should we use bad  judgement. 

 In answer to your query about why the pilot doesn't  fly the airplane and let the passengers deal with the terrorists...

 (1.) This is just another  emergency/abnormal where one pilot always flys the airplane and the other  (FFDO) "deals" with the emergency. This is a useful deterrant and makes all of  us, FFDOs or regular pilots, less of a "soft target" which is what the bad guys  always go for. 

 (2.) The event where an FFDO has to act is a last  ditch extreme measure where cockpit intrusion is imminent. Terrorists research  our behavior in great detail and know the psycological as well as strategic  measures that they intend to use against passengers and crew. They are very  patient and typically wait 5-8 years between attacks.

 (3.) Passenger intervention as well as more Air  Marshals is highly desireable and necessary, but we can't count on it. The FFDO  program is not perfect, but it's getting better all of the time because we are  always working on it as we get more experience, and more pilots are  participating on their own time yearly.  

 The TSA itself is not necessarly a friend to the  Air Marshal or the Federal Flight Deck Officer program, but please don't throw  the baby out with the bath water. These are good and necessary programs and any  support that we can gather from the community will be greatly appreciated and  paid back in Spades.

 Thanks, -Val 

 Valkyre1 wrote:

      > O.K. Brian, in the  interest of the sanity of the other Yakkers  reading

      > this list, I'm only going to  clarify one more thing; er, allright, two..

       >  

      > Martial arts are good (I did  TaeKwanDo myself) but it is hard to beat a

       >       good blaster at your side when you want  to "reach out and touch

       >       someone." (This reminds me of that  scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

       >       where Indiana Jones is confronted by a  scimitar-wielding martial-arts

       >       expert and he dispatches his adversary  with his revolver.)

      >   

      > Brian, did I hear you wrong? - That's  what FFDOs are trained to do. We

      > carry  and use guns in the cockpit when appropriate. Thank you for  the

      > lessons in nuclear waste. Knowledge  is good.

       Ah, good. I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that you  planned

      to kick-ass on the bad guys with your  own two hands (and feet).

      I like my clunky old 1911A1 but it is a bit  large for concealed carry.

      OTOH, you can just  keep it in your flight bag and then just carry at  the

      ready in case you have to go  aft.

      What  do they have you using to prevent overpenetration? I use  hydra

      shock but was thinking that a very high  velocity frangible plastic

      bullet would be  good in the cabin of an aircraft.

      > "Valkyre out" and nope, I still don't  owe a steak dinner yet, not until

      > someone  starts viably turning that stuff back into safe energy."  (Gasp.)

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

And I was off by one too.  ie: 1-49 vs.  1-50.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

This might make some terrorist think twice.   Then again,  maybe not.  It's good anyway.  Val will especially enjoy  it.

 http://www.barry.fireflyinternet.co.uk/fun/files/pilot.htm

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

Do not archive...

  Thanks Val -

  Feel safer with dudes like you out there already!  

  Smash

Valkyre1 <Valkyre1(at)comcast.net> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		          OK, another non-related to Yaks question, but a good one and dear to my heart.

  A question for you Ron... are you an FFDO? It doesn't sound like it from your brief assessment of how we work.

  You are right that cost is always in question whenever safety comes into the picture. That's why we have pilot unions to fight the bean counters in DC and at our airlines on behalf of safety,   and they  rely on our opposition as a counter balance. 

  I have a dear friend who is a FAM and the TSA is working to par them down as well since the public outcry re: 911 is dying down a bit. 

  Airlne pilots had to fight tooth and nail to get our FFDO program because the Airlines would rather pass up the deterrent value than face a possible, but unsubstantiated liability issue should we use bad judgement. 

  In answer to your query about why the pilot doesn't fly the airplane and let the passengers deal with the terrorists...

  (1.) This is just another emergency/abnormal where one pilot always flys the airplan  e and  the other (FFDO) "deals" with the emergency. This is a useful deterrant and makes all of us, FFDOs or regular pilots, less of a "soft target" which is what the bad guys always go for. 

  (2.) The event where an FFDO has to act is a last ditch extreme measure where cockpit intrusion is imminent. Terrorists research our behavior in great detail and know the psycological as well as strategic measures that they intend to use against passengers and crew. They are very patient and typically wait 5-8 years between attacks.

  (3.) Passenger intervention as well as more Air Marshals is highly desireable and necessary, but we can't count on it. The FFDO program is not perfect, but it's getting better all of the time because we are always working on it as we get more experience, and more pilots are participating on their own time yearly. 

  The TSA itself is not necessarly a friend to the Air Marshal or the Federal Flight Deck Officer program, but please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. These are good and necessary programs and any support that we can gather from the community will be greatly appreciated and paid back in Spades.

  Thanks, -Val 

  Valkyre1 wrote:

      > O.K. Brian, in the interest of the sanity of the other Yakkers reading

      > this list, I'm only going to clarify one more thing; er, allright, two..

       >  

      > Martial arts are good (I did TaeKwanDo myself) but it is hard to beat a

      >       good blaster at your side when you want to "reach out and touch

      >       someone." (This reminds me of that scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

      >       where Indiana Jones is confronted by a scimitar-wielding martial-arts

      >       expert and he dispatches his adversary with his revolver.)

      >  

      > Brian, did I hear you wrong? - That's what FFDOs are trained to do. We

      > carry and use guns in the cockpit when appropriate. Thank you for the

      >   lessons  in nuclear waste. Knowledge is good.

      Ah, good. I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that you planned

      to kick-ass on the bad guys with your own two hands (and feet).

      I like my clunky old 1911A1 but it is a bit large for concealed carry.

      OTOH, you can just keep it in your flight bag and then just carry at the

      ready in case you have to go aft.

      What do they have you using to prevent overpenetration? I use hydra

      shock but was thinking that a very high velocity frangible plastic

      bullet would be good in the cabin of an aircraft.

      > "V  alkyre  out" and nope, I still don't owe a steak dinner yet, not until

      > someone starts viably turning that stuff back into safe energy." (Gasp.)

 	 		 [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/virusmail/*http://mail.yahoo.com]Yahoo! Mail[/url] - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

Valkyre1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Rule 1 in aviation is fly the airplane.

Thanks Smash, it's mutual and you can call me "dudette" - Val

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